Fed - Courtesy Runner

[joemoore]

In FED rules, there was a discussion about using a curtesy runner for a substitute for the pitcher. These are the rules I found that were relevant to the discussion.

Courtesy Runners 1. At any time, the team at bat may use courtesy runners for the pitcher...

Rule 2.28.1 The pitcher is the player who is designated in the lineup as being responsible for pitching to the batter.

Rule 1.1.3 A player is designated on the lineup card and in the scorebook by name, shirt number, batting order position and by fielding position.

Rule 3.1.1 A substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called. The UIC shall record any reported substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately...

I think it is clear that a substitution can be made at any time. At the time of the substitution, the change is recorded on the lineup card. Whatever is on the lineup card is the official lineup. If the substitute is listed as a pitcher or a catcher, then they are entitled to a courtesy runner.

Most veteran officials in my chapter disagree with me. They say that a substitute only gets a position when he takes the field, up until that point he is simply an offensive substitute. That makes sense, except the rules say a substitute can be made at any time, and that the fielding position shall be designated on the lineup card.

I think people are getting confused by the second part of rule 3.1.1 which is for "unannounced" substitutions. An announced sub is effective immediately, unannounced is effective when the ball is live and the player is in the fielding position or the batter's box, etc.

I think people also get confused by the "no prospective" subs clause. I think they get it backwards. Prospective means "looking to the future". To me, this means a coach cannot say, after Baker completes his turn at bat, then Charles will take his place. That is prospective. If the coach says, Charles will replace Baker, then even if it is not Baker's turn at bat the substitution is recorded immediately and the change is effective immediately. The coach can not then go back on it and say he changed his mind.

Of course, in the pros, no coach would ever announce a sub early, because they don't want to lose options. If the pitcher is the 3rd batter and the coach knows he will pinch hit, he doesn't wait because he has to, he waits so he knows if it is a left or right handed pitcher, and whether anyone was injured, and whether the first 2 batter reached base or scored. It's just good baseball. And in the pros, there is no courtesy runner, so it doesn't matter if the sub has a position or not.

Anyway, that's my opinion, I think it's logical and supported by the rules. I hate when veteran umpires will tell me, you have to use common sense. I think my interpretation is logical, it follows the rules to the letter and it makes sense from the standpoint: the lineup card is the final decision.

It doesn't make sense to me that the substitute pitcher is unable to warm up, and the catcher cannot get his gear on because he has not acquired the right to the position. Especially, when in the top of the first, we go by the lineup card.

[David B]

Don't know exactly what you are asking, but you might be getting the cart ahead of the horse.

Team A at bat and Big Ben who plays F3 (carries a piano on his back to first) is at bat and singles. With your philosophy coach comes to you and says I want to use a courtesy runner for Ben, he's now my pitcher.

So you announce your sub and let the CR run for Ben?

That makes a huge advantage for team A. CR comes around and scores and then later in the inning BR Joe gets a single and now coach comes to you and says, I'm making a change. Joe is now my pitcher and you are going to allow CR for Joe??

See what a mess you have created.

So by not allowing them to project a pitcher you keep the team honest. If he's not pitched on the mound, then he's not a pitcher.

I think that;s what you're asking.

Thanks
David

Originally posted by joemoore
In FED rules, there was a discussion about using a curtesy runner for a substitute for the pitcher. These are the rules I found that were relevant to the discussion.

Courtesy Runners 1. At any time, the team at bat may use courtesy runners for the pitcher...

Rule 2.28.1 The pitcher is the player who is designated in the lineup as being responsible for pitching to the batter.

Rule 1.1.3 A player is designated on the lineup card and in the scorebook by name, shirt number, batting order position and by fielding position.

Rule 3.1.1 A substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called. The UIC shall record any reported substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately...

I think it is clear that a substitution can be made at any time. At the time of the substitution, the change is recorded on the lineup card. Whatever is on the lineup card is the official lineup. If the substitute is listed as a pitcher or a catcher, then they are entitled to a courtesy runner.

Most veteran officials in my chapter disagree with me. They say that a substitute only gets a position when he takes the field, up until that point he is simply an offensive substitute. That makes sense, except the rules say a substitute can be made at any time, and that the fielding position shall be designated on the lineup card.

I think people are getting confused by the second part of rule 3.1.1 which is for "unannounced" substitutions. An announced sub is effective immediately, unannounced is effective when the ball is live and the player is in the fielding position or the batter's box, etc.

I think people also get confused by the "no prospective" subs clause. I think they get it backwards. Prospective means "looking to the future". To me, this means a coach cannot say, after Baker completes his turn at bat, then Charles will take his place. That is prospective. If the coach says, Charles will replace Baker, then even if it is not Baker's turn at bat the substitution is recorded immediately and the change is effective immediately. The coach can not then go back on it and say he changed his mind.

Of course, in the pros, no coach would ever announce a sub early, because they don't want to lose options. If the pitcher is the 3rd batter and the coach knows he will pinch hit, he doesn't wait because he has to, he waits so he knows if it is a left or right handed pitcher, and whether anyone was injured, and whether the first 2 batter reached base or scored. It's just good baseball. And in the pros, there is no courtesy runner, so it doesn't matter if the sub has a position or not.

Anyway, that's my opinion, I think it's logical and supported by the rules. I hate when veteran umpires will tell me, you have to use common sense. I think my interpretation is logical, it follows the rules to the letter and it makes sense from the standpoint: the lineup card is the final decision.

It doesn't make sense to me that the substitute pitcher is unable to warm up, and the catcher cannot get his gear on because he has not acquired the right to the position. Especially, when in the top of the first, we go by the lineup card.

[jicecone]

I don't have my book in front of me but, I believe that there is an additional requirement for a pitcher to become the pitcher of record. The only time this can be satisfied is when the pitcher is at his position. So you can't change the pitcher in namesake only, without satisfying the other requirements , such as pitching to at least one batter.

[DG]

I don't think I would allow a courtesy runner for a substitute for a pitcher or catcher, until that substitute takes the field in one of those positions.

[MPC]

Remember that you can't make a defensive change while on offense. The offensive change may result in that player also playing defense. Likewise, you can't make an offensive change while on defense. The answer should be that you can only courtesy/speed-up run for the pitcher or catcher of record at that moment.

[Rich]

Originally posted by MPC
Remember that you can't make a defensive change while on offense. The offensive change may result in that player also playing defense. Likewise, you can't make an offensive change while on defense. The answer should be that you can only courtesy/speed-up run for the pitcher or catcher of record at that moment.

A person batting or running for the pitcher is just a pinch hitter or pinch runner -- he doesn't become the pitcher until he takes his position on defense -- actually in FED he doesn't become the pitcher until he throws his first pitch to the other team. Projected substitutions are not allowed in HS baseball.

Speed up rules are designed to speed the game up, however there is a huge potential for abuse by a team making substitutes.

--Rich

[joemoore]

I appreciate the comments, much the same as what I heard before. Yet, it is not written that way in the rules. The rules do not say a pitcher must take the field except in the case if he is unannouned.

The rules say the lineup card is what detemines who is the pitcher.

Does anyone know of any rules that say something different?

[Rich]

Originally posted by joemoore
I appreciate the comments, much the same as what I heard before. Yet, it is not written that way in the rules. The rules do not say a pitcher must take the field except in the case if he is unannouned.

The rules say the lineup card is what detemines who is the pitcher.

Does anyone know of any rules that say something different?

The rules also say that projected substitutions are not allowed.

I feel for you wanting to find the magic rule that explicitly says this, but I couldn't find it. This is a place where common sense must rule.

If you are going to allow these courtesy runners on projected defensive switches, I want to come coach at a game that you are umpiring. Because I will have EVERY slower batter report as the new catcher when he comes up to hit.

--Rich

[joemoore]

Projected means "in the future". A substitution is a change in the lineup card. All substitutions are marked immediately on the lineup card by rule. If the substitution is made immediately on the lineup card, it is not a projected sub.

I'm a logical person, I teach logic at the college level. To me it is common sense to go 100% by the lineup card. In real baseball it is not an issue because there are no courtesy runners.

I'd like to see the FED make a ruling on the issue. I could not find one reference to "pinch hitter" or "offensive substitute" or anything else that would indicate a player does not have a fielding position. The rule would be real simple: either define a player with no position, or say an offensive sub maintains the same position as the player he replaces.

Common sense would indicate that the substitute catcher needs to get his gear on and the substitute pitcher needs to warm up. Common sense would indicate the rule should be allowed for its intended purpose -- to speed up the game. And common sense should dictate that a ridiculous coach should be warned about unsporting actions for using a courtesy runner for a player and then not using the player as a pitcher or catcher.

Anyway, that's my opinion, that's the way I'll call it until I get fired or they change the book (or someone can point me to a rule or FED approved ruling on the specific issue.)

[GarthB]

To us poor lay folk who only got a B- in logic, common sense also says to follow the traditions and customs of FED baseball.

Common sense in on dangerous ground when it "goes it alone."

[Rich]

Originally posted by joemoore
Projected means "in the future". A substitution is a change in the lineup card. All substitutions are marked immediately on the lineup card by rule. If the substitution is made immediately on the lineup card, it is not a projected sub.

I'm a logical person, I teach logic at the college level. To me it is common sense to go 100% by the lineup card. In real baseball it is not an issue because there are no courtesy runners.

I'd like to see the FED make a ruling on the issue. I could not find one reference to "pinch hitter" or "offensive substitute" or anything else that would indicate a player does not have a fielding position. The rule would be real simple: either define a player with no position, or say an offensive sub maintains the same position as the player he replaces.

Common sense would indicate that the substitute catcher needs to get his gear on and the substitute pitcher needs to warm up. Common sense would indicate the rule should be allowed for its intended purpose -- to speed up the game. And common sense should dictate that a ridiculous coach should be warned about unsporting actions for using a courtesy runner for a player and then not using the player as a pitcher or catcher.

Anyway, that's my opinion, that's the way I'll call it until I get fired or they change the book (or someone can point me to a rule or FED approved ruling on the specific issue.)

You are always free to do what you want. But you may want to consider Case Play 3.1.1 Situation E on page 19 of the 2004 case book. While it doesn't deal with courtesy runners, it does show that a pinch hitter doesn't become a defensive player until he takes his position in the field.

However, 3.1.1 situation N on page 20 does directly deal with courtesy runners. It says: "...a courtesy runner would only be allowed to run for the player who was the catcher on defense before coming to bat."

Again you can decide whether this applies to your situation.

I contend it doesn't, because until that pinch hitter or pinch runner assumes a defensive position on the field, he is only a pinch hitter or pinch runner.

But in your games, do what you want. In my games, there will not be a courtesy runner in that situation.

--Rich

[David B]

Originally posted by joemoore

I'm a logical person, I teach logic at the college level. To me it is common sense to go 100% by the lineup card. In real baseball it is not an issue because there are no courtesy runners.

Anyway, that's my opinion, that's the way I'll call it until I get fired or they change the book (or someone can point me to a rule or FED approved ruling on the specific issue.)

For a logical person your statements make no sense.

What do you mean that's how I'll call it. You've been given the examples of how you would have made the game a fiasco, and others have given you the rule that states no projected substitutions. (that's in the rule book use it)

Finally there is an exact case play (which if you will read the forward of the book it states that this is a rule book) that handles this play. It also states that you may not project a substitution. The case play is in the 2004 Case Book 3.1.1 Situation N.

Just in case you don't have it I'll quote it:

Smith is the catcher and Jones is the left fielder as their team leaves the field to come to bat. Their coach tells U1 that Smith will go to left field and Jones will go in as catcher when the team returns to defense. the coach is really wishing to make the change so that the slower Jones can have a courtesy runner if he gets on base in the half-inning.

RULING: The umpire shall not allow a Projected substitution. Therefore, a courtesy runner would only be allowed to run for the player who was the catcher on defense before coming to bat. (courtesy runner rules)

So FED has a specific and approved ruling. Now you have something you can use.

The same rule would apply for the F1. He must have been the F1 on defense before coming to bat. (that's logical right?)

And BTW, you might need to let your buddies know,

they were right on the ruling.

Common sense in baseball makes a whole lot more sense than logic also as Garth stated above.

Thanks
David

[joemoore]

To those who resorted to ad hominem attacks on me, I would suggest that you try to realize when arguing that emotion may cloud your judgment. Don't resort to name calling or saying your opinion is better, support your ideas with facts.

I appreciate the comments that led me to the approved FED rulings.

3.1.1E and 3.1.1N are good rulings. They make it impossible for the game to become a fiasco by letting the coach take advantage of the CR rule. They indicate that defensive changes may be made only while the team is on defense.

As for using common sense:
Of course if the ball hits the plate it is a foul ball.
Once the ball is in foul territory, it's a foul ball.
Once you take a pitcher out of the game he can't go back in to pitch
etc., etc.

I've had people try to tell me all kinds of "common sense" rules that made common sense to them, but not to me. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. I just wanted a reference to the approved ruling.

I will give this info to my veteran friend and show him with a smile that he was right and also how he can prove it the next time a young upstart makes the same mistake.