Courtesy runner in top of the 1st

[RadioBlue]

FED rules. After doing quite a bit of research on this one, I can see both sides on this. What say you?

SITUATION:
At the pre-game conference, lineups for both teams are accepted as official. The visitors have a DP hitting for their FLEX who's pitching. Before the end of the pregame conference, but after the lineups have been accepted as official, the visiting manager indicates she wishes to bring her DP in to play defense as pitcher. If the DP (who's now the pitcher) reaches base in the 1st inning, is she allowed a courtesy runner?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

FED rules. After doing quite a bit of research on this one, I can see both sides on this. What say you?

SITUATION:
At the pre-game conference, lineups for both teams are accepted as official. The visitors have a DP hitting for their FLEX who's pitching. Before the end of the pregame conference, but after the lineups have been accepted as official, the visiting manager indicates she wishes to bring her DP in to play defense as pitcher. If the DP (who's now the pitcher) reaches base in the 1st inning, is she allowed a courtesy runner?

Yes, when the DP is reported as the pitcher, she becomes the listed pitcher, which is the requirement in the top of the first.
The only constraint is facing one batter in the bottom of the inning.

What is the "other side"?

[MGKBLUE]

The other side is the interpretation we have.

The wording listed on the line-up means the line-up presented and accepted by the umpire during the pre-game meeting.

In this case we do not allow any such change in the pitcher or catcher originally listed until after they have faced the first batter in the bottom of the first inning. Therefore in the OP, the DP remains the DP for the top of the first inning.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MGKBLUE

The other side is the interpretation we have.

The wording listed on the line-up means the line-up presented and accepted by the umpire during the pre-game meeting.

In this case we do not allow any such change in the pitcher or catcher originally listed until after they have faced the first batter in the bottom of the first inning. Therefore in the OP, the DP remains the DP for the top of the first inning.

I have not seen any interp that says "listed on the line-up means the line-up presented and accepted by the umpire".
I have not seen any interp that says the DP may not replace the FLEX in the top of the first. The "listed pitcher" rule is about CR and applies to whoever would be eligible for a CR in the top of the first. In the OP, that is the player listed as DP and pitcher.

[PSUchem]

All of this can be handled by not allowing "future" substitutions. If the coach wants his DP to play defense for his flex, then he should inform the umpire when his team moves to defense.

What if you were to allow such a substitution, and allow a courtesy runner for the "future pitcher" and then the coach turns around and reenters his flex to start the bottom of the inning? Then you've just allowed a courtesy runner for a regular batter.

I agree with those that say the line up is official as accepted during pregame conference. The pitcher for the visiting team who is listed in the line up must pitch in the bottom of the inning, and has the right to a courtesy runner in the top of the inning.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

...What if you were to allow such a substitution, and allow a courtesy runner for the "future pitcher" and then the coach turns around and reenters his flex to start the bottom of the inning? Then you've just allowed a courtesy runner for a regular batter.....

You don't allow the re-entry. Fed rule 8-9-2.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by MGKBLUE

... we do not allow any such change in the pitcher or catcher originally listed until after they have faced the first batter in the bottom of the first inning.

I don't believe there's a requirement in FED that the pitcher listed is required to face a batter. Considering that, just because the coach says they are planning to have the DP pitch, what is to stop the DP in the bottom half of the first inning from just going to the F9 position and having the player listed as F9 start the game pitching.

In organizations where the pitcher listed on the line-up is required to face a batter, I don't think the Flex can leave until she faces said batter.

I don't see how a courtesy runner would be legal either way.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

I don't believe there's a requirement in FED that the pitcher listed is required to face a batter.

NFHS requires the listed pitcher and catcher from the visitors face the first batter in the bottom of the 1st inning. 8.9.2 (Page 69 of 2010 Rule Book)

[RadioBlue]

The points raised in this thread present the sides of the argument to which I was referring.

Of course, the reason the coach is presenting the lineup at the pre-game meeting is so he/she has the DP/FLEX option to use. Obviously, he/she is wanting her good hitting pitcher (DP) to continue in the event the starting pitcher needs to be relived by her weaker hitting FLEX.

I subscribe to the "projected substitution" theory. The DP won't enter as the pitcher until the bottom of the 1st and the substitution shouldn't be accepted until the team is on defense.

However, since the FLEX is listed as the starting pitcher, she won't bat and never require a CR since she isn't playing offense. The only requirement is the starting pitcher faces the first batter for purposes of the CR rule. If she's not playing offense and would never use a CR, does this requirement apply to a starting pitcher who is a FLEX? There is no requirement that the home team's starting pitcher (as listed on the lineup) be required to face the first batter.

Of course, there's no case book play which offers a ruling.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

NFHS requires the listed pitcher and catcher from the visitors face the first batter in the bottom of the 1st inning. 8.9.2 (Page 69 of 2010 Rule Book)

Thanks (and to Dakota.) After reading the rule many times, I had missed that.