Courtesy runner in top of the 1st

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Why is the "lineup card maneuver described in the OP is illegal", when DP for FLEX is a legal replacement and the DP player is the listed pitcher before she or anyone bats?

If the rule regarding the battery facing the first batter in the bottom of the inning was a general rule (i.e. whether or not a CR is used), then DP cannot replace FLEX until FLEX faces one batter. I was just making an editorial comment (i.e. a comment on an editorial issue with the book). The rule (8-9-2) merely has the statement "In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; both must face at least the first batter on defense." I would modify the statement as: "In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; if either uses a CR in the top of the inning, that player must face at least the first batter on defense." However, as I said, the context of the rule (being in the CR rule) implies that.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

If the rule regarding the battery facing the first batter in the bottom of the inning was a general rule (i.e. whether or not a CR is used), then DP cannot replace FLEX until FLEX faces one batter. I was just making an editorial comment (i.e. a comment on an editorial issue with the book). The rule (8-9-2) merely has the statement "In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; both must face at least the first batter on defense." I would modify the statement as: "In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; if either uses a CR in the top of the inning, that player must face at least the first batter on defense." However, as I said, the context of the rule (being in the CR rule) implies that.

Agree, and you and I would certainly re-word the rule, but what are you saying would be illegal?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

...what are you saying would be illegal?

If the FLEX (the pitcher on the submitted lineup) must face the first batter in the bottom of the inning, then she cannot be replaced before she does that, so the maneuver where the DP/FLEX is submitted on the lineup (with FLEX as F1) and then immediately the coach drops down to 9 players would be illegal. He could not drop down to 9 players until FLEX has faced the first batter. I don't agree that this is the proper reading of the rule, but literally it could be read that way.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

If the FLEX (the pitcher on the submitted lineup) must face the first batter in the bottom of the inning, then she cannot be replaced before she does that, so the maneuver where the DP/FLEX is submitted on the lineup (with FLEX as F1) and then immediately the coach drops down to 9 players would be illegal. He could not drop down to 9 players until FLEX has faced the first batter. I don't agree that this is the proper reading of the rule, but literally it could be read that way.

The rule just says listed pitcher, not original listed pitcher, so that change before the player bats, would be legal. IMO
One of those "if it doesn't say so" rules.

[PSUchem]

I guess I still don't understand why the OP is not a projected substitution if made when the team is on offense.

Visiting team has DP/Flex on the submitted line-up. The Flex is listed as the pitcher (and should pitch in the bottom of the inning). The DP is the one who is batting. The coach can't just say, "Oh by the way, the DP will enter for the Flex at the bottom of this inning and will pitch, so I want a courtesy runner for her now." The team is not on defense, and there is no substitution made until the DP enters for the Flex on defense. If the substitution is reported at the beginning of the bottom of the inning, then the DP would not have needed a courtesy runner because she would not be on the line-up card as the "pitcher."

[Dakota]

A projected substitution is one that the coach can't actually make now; i.e. one that if you note it on the line up card, your lineup card now shows the future lineup instead of the present one.

For example, if a coach enters two pinch hitters and then wants to re-enter his starter if the first pinch hitter gets on base. You can take both pinch hitters (you don't have to wait until each comes to bat), but you can't take the re-entry yet since that is a projected sub.

In the OP, you can take the entry of DP for FLEX, and FLEX has now left the game. It really doesn't matter that the team is not yet on defense; the change can be noted on the lineup without something else happening first.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

NFHS requires the listed pitcher and catcher from the visitors face the first batter in the bottom of the 1st inning. 8.9.2 (Page 69 of 2010 Rule Book)

Thanks (and to Dakota.) After reading the rule many times, I had missed that.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

A projected substitution is one that the coach can't actually make now; i.e. one that if you note it on the line up card, your lineup card now shows the future lineup instead of the present one.

For example, if a coach enters two pinch hitters and then wants to re-enter his starter if the first pinch hitter gets on base. You can take both pinch hitters (you don't have to wait until each comes to bat), but you can't take the re-entry yet since that is a projected sub.

In the OP, you can take the entry of DP for FLEX, and FLEX has now left the game. It really doesn't matter that the team is not yet on defense; the change can be noted on the lineup without something else happening first.

I've always had issue with the fact that the term "projected substitution" was not defined.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

I've always had issue with the fact that the term "projected substitution" was not defined.

Aside from NCAA, (which only addresses projected re-entries), do any of the other rule sets have any language that specifically addresses the term "projected substitution" (which is certainly a more all encompassing phrase the "projected re-entries")?

NCAA Substitute Player 8.5.1.2
A coach of the team making the substitution shall immediately notify the plate umpire at the time a substitute enters the game. Projected re-entries are not allowed.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

I've always had issue with the fact that the term "projected substitution" was not defined.

Does anyone have a problem with this explanation?

"Future or projected substitutions are cases where a sub will replace a player who will still participate in some manner before the sub takes over. "

e.g.,
- the obvious re-rentry prediction
- #7 will replace #12 in the field, but #12 will bat this inning
- #30 will bat for #18 when we get up, but #18 will play the field this inning
- etc.

Any change that can occur right away is therefore not projected or future. That includes reporting subs for the next two batters at the same time, and DP/FLEX maneuvers; as long as the replaced player actually leaves the game.

[RadioBlue]

"Future or projected substitutions are cases where a sub will replace a player who will still participate in some manner before the sub takes over. "

I don't have a problem with that explaination, at all. I just wish it was expressly defined in the rulebook. (And as you have defined it would be just fine, Cecil.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

I really don't see the need. When you take a change, you make the change. Why would it be necessary to provide extraneous explanation for something that isn't supposed to be available to begin.

Of course, you could always go this route:

Coach: 24 is going to hit for 13. 13 will re-enter.
Umpire: Coach, give me the change when it happens.
Coach: I just did.
Umpire: Fine, coach. 24 is back in the game and 13 has used one of their two entries into the game. Any other players you would like to waste?
Coach: But...uh...no...I didn't.....what?
Umpire: Thanks, Coach, the dugout is that way.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Does anyone have a problem with this explanation?

"Future or projected substitutions are cases where a sub will replace a player who will still participate in some manner before the sub takes over. "

e.g.,
- the obvious re-rentry prediction
- #7 will replace #12 in the field, but #12 will bat this inning
- #30 will bat for #18 when we get up, but #18 will play the field this inning
- etc.

Any change that can occur right away is therefore not projected or future. That includes reporting subs for the next two batters at the same time, and DP/FLEX maneuvers; as long as the replaced player actually leaves the game.

Would be interested to see the method used to keep track of that, (it's not going to happen now, but later) on a line up card.