When to overrule

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

This situation is standard at all of my pregame talks...

Excellent thing to do. It usually is in mine.

We had this above play tonight but we had not talked about it. My partner was someone I have called with often and we kind of skimped on the pre-game. I was PU and think I did what my partner was expecting... as soon as the play happened, he just pointed at first base and looked straight at me. I was near home.

I wasn't 100% sure what he was asking so I just looked back at him. It seemed like a long time, but actually was probably just a second or so, maybe even just a ½ second. He didn't ask anything and just kept pointing at the bag and looking at me. (Our checked swing appeal mechanic is to always verbalize "Did she go?" Maybe I should have said, "What? You talkin' to me?" )

Even though he didn't verbalize the question, I gave the swiping "pulled her foot" motion and then he gave the safe signal. It worked well, but we should have been prepared by discussing it in the pregame.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

I, also was taught to ask your partner first before making the call and this is the method I prefer. I know that Mike doesn't like it, but I have never worked with him either!

If you choose to do this, it must be done judiciously, as your PU partner will have other responsibilities and there may be other runners moving around second and third base. Almost all of the umpires that I work with have been trained to hold near the plate to see the play at first before releasing to third for any potential call there. However, I have seen some PUs immediately release to third when the ball is hit and are not in any position to offer help. Most of the time, any other runners will have advanced one base or be holding at a base since the ball has remained in the infield on this play and the PU will be able to help.

Andy, for what it is worth, I have a problem with any "standard" mechanic which needs to be done judiciously. It is either the standard mechanic (to be done whenever that situation arises), or NOT the standard mechanic.

If it has that many holes that it can't or shouldn't be used sometimes, then it shouldn't be the standard.

[mach3]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That's because if your partner cannot help you, and since you asked,
that means you are not sure you saw an out. And if you didn't see an out, how are you going to call it if your partner isn't available to help?

Mike, isn't that a question of how you ask?
Coming from the same continent as DutchAlex, but a different country, we established the following for experianced crews (!):
In a sit, like the one in the OP, the BU should ask: "Did you see her pull the foot?"
That would enable the PU to answer "No!" in a case (s)he didn't look or judges the foot was not pulled. And "Yes" if (s)he saw it.

I don't think it means I did not see an out. It means from what I could see I had an out, but I might have missed one information and I will ask for it. Afterwards the BU will make the call.

But I guess our coaches are different from yours And it is more family like here in Germany since Softball is not quite as big as in the US

But in general I agree that the PU should NEVER overrule!
How should the PU know, that the BU is missing the information and not just had a different judgment on that situation? It might be easy writing down obvious Situations but in real life it is more complex!

Raoul

[NCASAUmp]

Greetings, mach3!

An umpire asking another umpire for help on a call is absolutely acceptable and happens all the time. It's perfectly normal for one umpire to seek out that information.

However, when a particular play is completely my call, it's inappropriate for another umpire to attempt to push their call and attempt to "overrule" me. In fact, the rules prohibit this.

If it's my call and I need help, I'll ask for it. Otherwise, all other umpires should keep their opinions to themselves.

Make sense?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mach3

Mike, isn't that a question of how you ask?
In a sit, like the one in the OP, the BU should ask: "Did you see her pull the foot?" That would enable the PU to answer "No!" in a case (s)he didn't look or judges the foot was not pulled. And "Yes" if (s)he saw it.

If you have to ask, that means you did not see an out, so how are you going to call an out if your partner has no answer or wasn't there? By asking, you have effectively questioned your own judgment.

I don't think it means I did not see an out. It means from what I could see I had an out, but I might have missed one information and I will ask for it. Afterwards the BU will make the call.

Then if all the information you have indicates an out, call it. BTW, while you and your partner are having this nice conversation, who is covering the play at 3B or home? Just because there may be a question doesn't mean the players stop playing.

[mach3]

@NCASA Ump: No disagreement. My Call, I CAN go for help but if not the call is my business and I have to live with it. And when it comes down to it my partner is there to help my to to show me off.

@IRISHMAFIA: Yes all, Information that I have indicates the out. But I am not sure if she lost contact during her stretch (due to the angle I had) AND the situation allows me to ask before I rule, why shouldn't I try to get the information my partner might have and include it into my call? Why should I wait for the coach to yell at me, ask for my partners information, turn the call and have the other coach in face?
Of course if my partner is busy or has no other information, I have to with what I got.

But I can see where you coming from. And we only have experienced Umps doing this and crews that are comfortable with it.

Raoul

[Snocatzdad]

Maybe I should have worded my post differently. I understand rule prohibits the PU to overrule. But would a PU call time and discuss with BU what he saw so in an effort to get the call right?

I guess I see basketball/football refs do this all the time, get together, confer, try to get it right. IMO if your paying a "team" of officials every set of eyes has value. It's interesting to find out that this seems to be a situation for softball where it is more important to most to handle it procedurally correct than get the call right. (because umpires seem to feel handling it prodedurally correct is getting it right, while most laymen would feel that F3 catching the ball off the bag is not an out)

[Dakota]

Part of the "procedure" as you put it involves the coaches. The OC needs to request time and tell the BU that he saw a pulled foot and request that the BU confer with his partner. That is how the call is gotten "right."

[bniu]

Originally Posted by shagpal

good one, stick with the out call in this case. You've got one of the 42 you need. I had a BU call a double play out at 1st where it was quite obvious the foot was pulled. I didn't say a word. He came up to me and said he had interference at 2nd on the runner from 1st and the batter-runner should be out anyways. He asked me if the 1B was on the bag. I told him the 1B wasn't on the bag and that was it, and told him he could do whatever he wanted with the info I gave him. He ended up calling the batter-runner safe at 1st, despite the interference at 2nd. Didn't end up mattering since the next guy lined into a double play to end the inning.
Umpires have to stick together on the field, sometimes, if a coach has been jumping on my partner all day and my partner comes to me for help, i'll agree with my partner's call even if I saw differently, partly to support my partner and partly to draw the coach's wrath onto me and off of my partner...

here's my theory of what to do if two umpires both make a call at a base.
1. both call out, obvious: stick with the out
2. one calls safe, one calls out: stick with the out call
3. both call safe, screw it, call the runner out

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bniu

Umpires have to stick together on the field, sometimes, if a coach has been jumping on my partner all day and my partner comes to me for help, i'll agree with my partner's call even if I saw differently, partly to support my partner and partly to draw the coach's wrath onto me and off of my partner...

Nope, that's not right.

[shagpal]

ergo, ego.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Nope, that's not right.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Nope, that's not right.

Agreed, not right at all. You see something differently than your partner, be honest and tell your partner. Otherwise, you both have the call wrong (of course then the coach would be right to be upset with you).

If a coach has been jumping on my partner all day I trust my partner to take care of business if the coach has gotten out of hand.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by SethPDX

Agreed, not right at all. You see something differently than your partner, be honest and tell your partner. Otherwise, you both have the call wrong (of course then the coach would be right to be upset with you).

If a coach has been jumping on my partner all day I trust my partner to take care of business if the coach has gotten out of hand.

Agreed. If such a conference results in the call being changed, two things happen. One, the coach whose team now benefits from the call will usually pipe down and be pleased with the call and will often appreciate the fact that it was handled properly. Two, the other coach may get upset, but it's usually not as bad. After all, you've already gone to your partner and discussed the play. What more is there to discuss?

Not to say coaches always share that logic (or any at all, for that matter), but it's nice to live in that dream world for a while.

[shagpal]

what is NOT right?

in that picture, who's call are YOU gonna agree or disagree? once a call is decided by your crew, are you not gonna stick by your crew or you gonna throw your own under the bus and decide FOR and trump your crew, and let the disparaged coach work you against your crew?

ERGO, EGO.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Nope, that's not right.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by shagpal

what is NOT right?

in that picture, who's call are YOU gonna agree or disagree? once a call is decided by your crew, are you not gonna stick by your crew or you gonna throw your own under the bus and decide FOR and trump your crew, and let the disparaged coach work you against your crew?

ERGO, EGO.

If you do not understand an umpire consulting a partner and keeping/changing a call based on information obtained; I hope you do not live close enough to ever be my partner.