Overrule?

[Blue37]

I asked a question in the previous thread on this topic but it is at the bottom of page three and the discussion is well into page four and I am afraid it will be lost, so I am posting here as a new thread. The specific question was for cowboyfan1, but I am interested in how any Referee who says they would never overrule another official would handle a situation where a call was made that had no enforcement or signal, and the calling official would not back down.

Here is the pertinent part of cowbyfan1's post:

I also worked as a White hat in a varisty game last year. The head coach of team A kept yelling his receivers were being bumped more than 5 yards down field. Next play my LJ throws a flag. I asked him what he had and he told me the defender bumped the receiver more than 5 yards down field. I preceeded to tell him that is an NFL rule, not High school. I then asked him if the defender held the reciever. He said no. I asked him if when the bump happened was the pas in the air. He said no. I then asked him if the bump kept the reciever from getting downfield at all. He said no. I then asked him then you think I should wave off the flag and he said yes. Again I did not overrule him tho I knew he was wrong.

Here is my question for him:

If I understand you correctly, if he had said "No, you should not wave off the flag.", you would not have waved it off. How many yards would the umpire have marked off? What signal would you have given? What would your explanation to the offensive coach have been if he had questioned the call?

[Jim S]

Since the pass was not in the air the only foul here could be holding for contacting a receiver who was no longer a potential blocker.
However if he said yes, your next question would be "For what foul?"
Actually the better response after he said no to your questions about what happened would be to say, "Then we really DON'T have a foul here, do we?"

You would not be overruling him at this point. He has told you that there was no foul that fits the rules and the situation, and that he has incorrectly applied the rules. As the referee it is your job then to get the correct call. Wipe it off. Discuss it later.

[PSU213]

Originally posted by Jim S
Since the pass was not in the air the only foul here could be holding for contacting a receiver who was no longer a potential blocker.
However if he said yes, your next question would be "For what foul?"
Actually the better response after he said no to your questions about what happened would be to say, "Then we really DON'T have a foul here, do we?"

You would not be overruling him at this point. He has told you that there was no foul that fits the rules and the situation, and that he has incorrectly applied the rules. As the referee it is your job then to get the correct call. Wipe it off. Discuss it later.

Technically, contacting the receiver is illegal use of hands, but the holding signal is given, and it is a 10 yard penalty. As for the "overruling" issue, I agree with Jim S.

[JRutledge]

I agree with Jim as well. But I would not call that over ruling your partner, you are just taking them to the right conclusion. They throw the flag because something did take place. There are other factors which might affect the final decision. There is a difference between defensive holding and DPI.

Peace

[schmitty1973]

When I did my first game, the WH told me to only throw a flag if I saw something and he didn't want me coming to him because "something didn't look right". If you don't know what the exact penatly is, then you probably shouldn't throw a flag.

[Jim S]

Originally posted by PSU213

Technically, contacting the receiver is illegal use of hands, but the holding signal is given, and it is a 10 yard penalty. As for the "overruling" issue, I agree with Jim S.

You are indeed correct. I was reading the wrong letter in the penalty. c. instead of d.
Of course we changed to the holding signal fairly recently.. when the ilegal block to the back took over the illegal use of hands signal.

[Blue37]

5 man crew, 15 seconds to go in the game. B leads 21 to 17. A has the ball on B1, 4th and goal. They run a QB sneak, and the QB is stacked up at the goal line and pushed back. R, U, and BJ cannot tell whether he scored. L goes up with the TD signal but LJ signals him down short of the goal. You are the R so you huddle with the crew. Now remember that neither you, the U, or the BJ have anything to offer as to whether the QB scored. Both your endmen are adamant that their call is correct and neither will back down. How do you resolve this without overruling one or the other?

[ljudge]

Simple...just walk over to the instant replay and get under the hood. :-)

On a serious note, the R needs to probe and ask more questions to see if one of the wings was potentially screened on the play. It's R's job to look for where there could have been doubt somewhere; at least I think so.

If at the end all things are equal you have to make a call then I'd probably go with the official who was closer to the runner. I'm not sure what else you could do. If the player was in the middle of the field I'd probably go TD.

Seasoned Referees...anything different???

Your input would be greatly appreciated especially since I'm moving to the R position this coming season.

[CBrockett]

I'd throw a flag and call two live ball fouls; one on defense one on offense.

But all kidding aside, what you have is bad mechanics. If either Ref sees the other guy signal touchdown, there is no debate. You have a T-Down.. Both need to signal.

[Ed Hickland]

Had a similar situation in my first WH year. You should listen to both officials version of what they saw and base your decision on what you feel is the correct call. Somebody is not going to be happy with whatever you call.

One thing I cover constantly in pregame when within 5-yards of the goal line go immediately to the goal line and straddle the line. If the ball comes close DO NOT signal immediately. First look to your partner on the other side of the line and keep moving toward the spot. If you are sure the ball crossed tell him "I got a TD" if you are unsure, "Is it a TD?" Only after confirmation of a touchdown should the signal go up.

With experience you learn to withhold signals. As a R it is so much easier to explain why the runner did not cross than to explain why the signal by an official was not correct.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Ok, either the facts haven't all come out, one of the wings was out of position, or one of them is mistaken/lying about what he saw - it's highly unlikely that they could BOTH see the ball. Here's what I would do:

(1) Ask both wings if they were right on the goal line. Parallax will kill you on this call otherwise. If one is out of position, go with the other guy.

(2) Ask the HL if he definitely saw the ball cross the plane before any whistle. If he says no, problem solved - down at the 1cm line. We'll need to talk later about giving TD signals without seeing the ball.

(3) Ask the LJ if he's actually got the runner DOWN or if it's just a progress stop. If it's a progress stop, I've got a TD.

(4) If the LJ has the runner DOWN, ask if he could see the ball for THE ENTIRE TIME BEFORE the knee or other body part hit. If no, I've got a TD. If yes, then I must rule that the runner was down before the ball broke the plane. Down at the 1cm mark, 1/10 for B.

(5) In any event, break out the ponchos and hip boots, because no matter what you call the feces is about to collide with the rotary ventilator.

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by The Roamin' Umpire
Ok, either the facts haven't all come out, one of the wings was out of position, or one of them is mistaken/lying about what he saw - it's highly unlikely that they could BOTH see the ball. Here's what I would do:

(1) Ask both wings if they were right on the goal line. Parallax will kill you on this call otherwise. If one is out of position, go with the other guy.

(2) Ask the HL if he definitely saw the ball cross the plane before any whistle. If he says no, problem solved - down at the 1cm line. We'll need to talk later about giving TD signals without seeing the ball.

(3) Ask the LJ if he's actually got the runner DOWN or if it's just a progress stop. If it's a progress stop, I've got a TD.

(4) If the LJ has the runner DOWN, ask if he could see the ball for THE ENTIRE TIME BEFORE the knee or other body part hit. If no, I've got a TD. If yes, then I must rule that the runner was down before the ball broke the plane. Down at the 1cm mark, 1/10 for B.

(5) In any event, break out the ponchos and hip boots, because no matter what you call the feces is about to collide with the rotary ventilator.

thanks for the answer. It is nice to read a clear, concise, lgoical answer once in a while.

[PS2Man]

Originally posted by CBrockett
But all kidding aside, what you have is bad mechanics. If either Ref sees the other guy signal touchdown, there is no debate. You have a T-Down.. Both need to signal.

You should never mirror a fellow official if you do not see the play. The first official might be wrong. You do not want be wrong with him.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Blue37
5 man crew, 15 seconds to go in the game. B leads 21 to 17. A has the ball on B1, 4th and goal. They run a QB sneak, and the QB is stacked up at the goal line and pushed back. R, U, and BJ cannot tell whether he scored. L goes up with the TD signal but LJ signals him down short of the goal. You are the R so you huddle with the crew. Now remember that neither you, the U, or the BJ have anything to offer as to whether the QB scored. Both your endmen are adamant that their call is correct and neither will back down. How do you resolve this without overruling one or the other?

First of all, you cannot overrule anyone if no decision has been made. Both officials made a signal, but you cannot have both. Someone was not supposed to signal at all. So this is not an "overrule" when someone had a brain fart and did something they were not suppose to.

I have had this happen as a Referee. You use common sense than talk to both officials. Usually you stick with the official's call that had the ball come to their side. If someone is blocked off you might give the call to the other side. The bottom line is that there is no good that can come out of conflicting signals. If anything, try to prevent it. The wings should pinch if they are not sure, and then rule a TD after the play is dead if necessary. The wings should also look at each other if there is any question as to if he got across.

Peace

[cowbyfan1]

I have to agree on pinching in and keep pinching in until you find the ball and determine if it got in or not. Sometimes it maybe after the player is on the ground. The R and U can help a little, i.e. R saw a knee on the ground and then the player wiggle more forward. Either way the wings need to pinch as quick as possible, even start pinched some if they can.

As far as the original question, The idea is to get the wing official that made that call to get it right with a series of questions along the lines of the rules being played. You have PI, holding, or illegal use of hands in this situation. My questions led him to realize the offense was put at no disadvantage on the play. If he said that the defender knocked the receiver off his route with the bump then it would have an S42 and 10 yards. If he comes up and is insistant that B fouled A, he would need to tell me what he did. If he can't then I wave it off, no as an overrule, but as I don't have anything to call/signal.

I had a WH overrule me on one. I flagged a player for a late hit. The flag went against a team getting the butts handed to them. Told the WH what I had and he said "Well since I didn't see it then i am waving it off because the losing sideline is getting out of control and this will probably push them over the edge." I told him after the game I will never work another game with him ever.