Should I Overrule the BU?

[Matthew F]

This stitch happened 5 years ago before the "Get it right at all costs" mentality really took hold - we did go for "help" on check-swings and swipe-tags or a pulled-foot at 1B, but that was pretty much the extent.

Over 40 league, OBR. R2 on 2B, 1 out. BR hit a deep fly to F8. BU in position for catch and tag up; I'm moving to 3B for possible play. R2 leaves before F8 catches the ball and beats the throw to 3B easily. Defense appeals to BU, but BU calls him safe. The defense then appeals to me and I tell them that the call is the BU's and that I had to get into position for the play at 3B - the BU's call stands.

I know without a doubt that R2 left early - I think the only person on or near the field who didn't know it was the BU. The UIC of the umpire association said I did the right thing, which provided some relief.

Granted this happened several years ago, should a stich like this, nowadays, be discussed between the umpires to get the correct call? I find this stitch akin to having the PU call a strike on a check swing and then the BU overruling the PU saying that the batter didn't go - taboo in my world.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Matthew F
This stitch happened 5 years ago before the "Get it right at all costs" mentality really took hold - we did go for "help" on check-swings and swipe-tags or a pulled-foot at 1B, but that was pretty much the extent.

Over 40 league, OBR. R2 on 2B, 1 out. BR hit a deep fly to F8. BU in position for catch and tag up; I'm moving to 3B for possible play. R2 leaves before F8 catches the ball and beats the throw to 3B easily. Defense appeals to BU, but BU calls him safe. The defense then appeals to me and I tell them that the call is the BU's and that I had to get into position for the play at 3B - the BU's call stands.

I know without a doubt that R2 left early - I think the only person on or near the field who didn't know it was the BU. The UIC of the umpire association said I did the right thing, which provided some relief.

Granted this happened several years ago, should a stich like this, nowadays, be discussed between the umpires to get the correct call? I find this stitch akin to having the PU call a strike on a check swing and then the BU overruling the PU saying that the batter didn't go - taboo in my world.

On a side note: In my world, the base umpire would have everything on this play, including the play at third (unless there was also an R1).

I would never, NEVER insert my own opinion unless the base umpire came to me. It's not my call, not my judgement to make.

[Tim C]

Rich, in "all worlds" BU has the entire play.

Catch, tag, advance and call.

All mechanic books agree on this "non-rotation".

And to answer the original question: "what makes what you saw correct?"

I ask this everytime someone wants to find an excuse to "over-rule" another umpire.

Maybe, just maybe it was you that saw it incorrectly.

I would never over-rule a partner at any time on a judgement call.

It just ain't done.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Matthew F
This stitch happened 5 years ago before the "Get it right at all costs" mentality really took hold - we did go for "help" on check-swings and swipe-tags or a pulled-foot at 1B, but that was pretty much the extent.

Over 40 league, OBR. R2 on 2B, 1 out. BR hit a deep fly to F8. BU in position for catch and tag up; I'm moving to 3B for possible play. R2 leaves before F8 catches the ball and beats the throw to 3B easily. Defense appeals to BU, but BU calls him safe. The defense then appeals to me and I tell them that the call is the BU's and that I had to get into position for the play at 3B - the BU's call stands.

I know without a doubt that R2 left early - I think the only person on or near the field who didn't know it was the BU. The UIC of the umpire association said I did the right thing, which provided some relief.

Granted this happened several years ago, should a stich this, nowadays, be discussed between the umpires to get the correct call? I find this stitch akin to having the PU call a strike on a check swing and then the BU overruling the PU saying that the batter didn't go - taboo in my world.

First of all Matt, this ""Get it right at all costs" mentality " is based on the premise that we are starting with competent officials that based upon the information available, WILL get the call right in almost EVERY instance.

When due to circumstances beyond their control, they are not able to get all the information necessary to make the correct decision, then they should be knowedgeable enough to ask for help.

I agree, this is different than the mentality that previously took place, and that was "this is my call, too bad, live with it."

Now you have already been schooled on the correct mechanic by Tim and Rich. If your partner was not knowledgeable to realize his discision was incorrect, than your stuck with what you got.

[mikebran]

This post is bizarre on many levels

You had to go back FIVE years to come up with a "stitch"... what have you been waiting for? We could have heard about this 2.5 years ago, for example.

As mentioned by others... PU has no business at third.. BU has everthing.. but LETS ASSUME you meant to say R1 and R2.. then at least your story is mechanically sound.

So.. you already SAID BU was in position for catch and tagup... we assume then that he KNEW he was supposed to see both of these...

Therefore.. the appeal made, and the proper umpire ruled, "SAFE" (he tagged up). Can we assume he ruled as such because that is what he SAW?

What in the world are you having a conversation with the team about "your positioning". They CAN'T appeal to you, and when they do you can say "B# me, or some other nicety."

Did BU come to you for "help" (The sun was in my eyes).

And please identify where in the country we have BU's overruling strike calls on appeal? Wait, that part of the post WAS the joke, right?

Originally posted by Matthew F
This stitch happened 5 years ago before the "Get it right at all costs" mentality really took hold - we did go for "help" on check-swings and swipe-tags or a pulled-foot at 1B, but that was pretty much the extent.

Over 40 league, OBR. R2 on 2B, 1 out. BR hit a deep fly to F8. BU in position for catch and tag up; I'm moving to 3B for possible play. R2 leaves before F8 catches the ball and beats the throw to 3B easily. Defense appeals to BU, but BU calls him safe. The defense then appeals to me and I tell them that the call is the BU's and that I had to get into position for the play at 3B - the BU's call stands.

I know without a doubt that R2 left early - I think the only person on or near the field who didn't know it was the BU. The UIC of the umpire association said I did the right thing, which provided some relief.

Granted this happened several years ago, should a stich like this, nowadays, be discussed between the umpires to get the correct call? I find this stitch akin to having the PU call a strike on a check swing and then the BU overruling the PU saying that the batter didn't go - taboo in my world.

[largeone59]

I agree 100% with Tee.

The only time there would be an exception is if the BU did not see the tag (meaning: wasn't watching the tag or paying attention to it or had his back to it). Even then, the BU would have to ask the PU if he seen anything to "get help."

You can't overturn a judgement call. Period.

[mcrowder]

Matt - the biggest problem I have with this is the implication that for some reason, despite your acknowledgement that BU WAS in position, you feel that YOUR viewpoint (from 90 feet away) and/or the viewpoints of "everyone else" (from 120-200 feet away) must inherently have been "better" than the viewpoint of BU --- who, again, was IN position, and had a BETTER view than ANYONE else on the field (except perhaps an admittedly biased F8!)

If he WAS in position, why do you assume your view of the play was different. Heck, since you moved yourself OUT of position (to 3rd base), you had an AWFUL angle on both catch and tag at the same time - you have a better time convincing me of your view from home plate or the working area in front of the plate - at least your angle is in line.

Sorry to come off hard on this... I just hate when someone in an inherently WORSE position to make a call finds it in them to assume that their view of a particular play is somehow better than the person in the BETTER position.

[ozzy6900]

I don't care about rotation or non rotation in this stitch.
My partner is right where he should be and I'm 90' away. Why in the world would I want to over-rule him? This "get it right - let's all over-rule each other - I saw it better than you" is getting to be real BS!

[Matthew F]

Thanks for the replies guys - you regained my faith that getting it right doesn't mean at all costs. I'm in full agreement that one shouldn't overrule his partner on judgement calls (even obviously blown judgement calls) without your partner coming to you for help. It just seems this board had gone a little "wacko" lately with the judgment calls and I wanted to take a pulse.

1) MikeBran, I brought this stitch up because lately there have been stitches talked about involving appeals - I just wanted to test this one out, at this time.

2) All you guys about my mechanics, Well that's what the organization did several years ago (right or wrong) with a fly ball to RCF-RF. The PU also picked up a possible 2nd play at 3B on an infield ground ball with R2 on since the BU drifted with the play to 1B. The orginization I'm with now has the BU working the "box" behind the pitcher (minor movement for angle and pivoting) and pretty much has all plays except R1 going to 3B. I like how we do things now since we aren't moving as much and we are set for the play.

3) Those questioning whether I saw R2 leaving early - You might find this hard to believe, but it was soooo obvious (at least 2 steps) - it was a blown call, plain and simple. And I'm dead serious that just about everyone at the field knew it.

4) I thought this would be a healthy diversion from some of the other posts that were occupying forum space - at least something I thought we all would probably agree on ...except my mechanics.

[Tim C]

Matt you still don't "get it" . . . there is NO PROOF what you saw is accurate.

That is why the rule is written as it is . . . no one umpire can be assured that what he saw was what really happened.

Think about what I am saying . . .

It Does not matter that you think "it wasn't even close" . . .

That is simply your view.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by Tim C
Matt you still don't "get it" . . . there is NO PROOF what you saw is accurate.

Actually, there is something fairly close to proof that Matthew was right and his partner who made the call was wrong and I'm not talking about videotape either.

In my very first umpire article which I believe was about 10,000 words and still over on umpire.org, I put forward the proposition that the goal of an umpire should be changed from getting more calls right to avoiding getting calls wrong in such a way that everyone knew they were wrong. In other words, the umpire that misses 20 pitches a game by one or two inches is better than the umpire who misses three pitches a game - but those misses are by 6 inches so everyone knows that they are misses. I called this concept the "gross miss." Carl has since called it my most important contribution to the advancement of umpire knowledge.

Given that perception is reality, where does this leave Matthew. Simply this. In the same article, I made the observation that the best way to identify a gross miss is to look in the dugout of the team that the call went in favor of. If they are smiling or have a look of disbelief on their faces, you have a gross miss. So Matthew does have a way of knowing that his partner was wrong. If he had glanced in the dugout of the batting team, their faces would have told him that he was right and his partner had a gross miss. If the team that the call went in favor of perceives that you are wrong, THEN YOU ARE WRONG 100%. You have your proof.

Gross misses are caused by being close to plays. We get close to plays to see the little things, but in the process the play sometimes explodes or we fail to see the whole picture. People 45 feet or more from a play, almost never make a gross miss. Gross errors in judgment are the exclusive territory of the calling umpire, the batter on balls and strikes, the runner being tagged out, or the fielder making the play. The other umpires, the personnel in the dugout, and the fielders not involved in the play, do not have gross misses. That is fairly solid information that Matthew was probably correct in his judgment.

Peter

[Matthew F]

Originally posted by Tim C
Matt you still don't "get it" . . . there is NO PROOF what you saw is accurate.

That is why the rule is written as it is . . . no one umpire can be assured that what he saw was what really happened.

Think about what I am saying . . .

It Does not matter that you think "it wasn't even close" . . .

That is simply your view.

I don't really understand why you are chosing to play word games Tim? I guess there has never been a "Blown Call" in the history of baseball? So, I guess I'm not "getting it". I do understand that there is only one "official" version of what happened, if that's what you are trying to say.

If it makes you happy... The BU's "view" was that R2 did not leave early. Everybody else's "view" was that R2 left early. The ONLY view that mattered was the BU's. That was my point 5 years ago and I was just curious if that's still true in this "Get it right" era that we appear to be in.

[mj]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

On a side note: In my world, the base umpire would have everything on this play, including the play at third (unless there was also an R1).

I would never, NEVER insert my own opinion unless the base umpire came to me. It's not my call, not my judgement to make.

Rich,

The NFHS umpires manual says that U1 has the call at 3rd unless he goes out to rule on a fly to right. Am I missing something?

Thanks,
MJ

[Tim C]

Most quality umpires don't work NFHS mechanics.

Rich is a quality umpire.

Matt:

I am not playing word games.

You were working a two man crew. Unless you can convince me otherwise, you cannot, that you can seriously think that everything you "see" is correct and your partner could error.

My point is a fact, not "word games", there is no way to define that what you saw was correct.

Therefore there is no overruling of another's judegement calls.

[Edited by Tim C on Jul 28th, 2005 at 10:32 AM]

[mj]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tim C
[B]Most quality umpires don't work NFHS mechanics.

Rich is a quality umpire.


I totally agree, that is why I asked.