When to overrule

[Snocatzdad]

Runners on 2nd and 3rd 1 out. 2 man crew high school game. Base ump is sitting behind SS. Ground ball to F6 throw is wide to F3 and F3 pulls her foot to make the catch. Base umpire calls out. From Base umpires view (almost 90 feet away and bad angle) no way to see foot pulled. Plate umpire stares at 1B coach after play looking like a cat who ate a canary dying for someone to ask what he saw.

Now IMO what should have happened is that the OC should have asked the Base umpire to check with his partner to see if his partner saw the foot pulled.

My question is at what threshold should the PU speak up to get the call right without being asked. It's no shame on the BU he missed the call, BU was in a lousy position because of the lead runners, to see the pulled foot.

[JEL]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

Runners on 2nd and 3rd 1 out. 2 man crew high school game. Base ump is sitting behind SS. Ground ball to F6 throw is wide to F3 and F3 pulls her foot to make the catch. Base umpire calls out. From Base umpires view (almost 90 feet away and bad angle) no way to see foot pulled. Plate umpire stares at 1B coach after play looking like a cat who ate a canary dying for someone to ask what he saw.

Now IMO what should have happened is that the OC should have asked the Base umpire to check with his partner to see if his partner saw the foot pulled.

My question is at what threshold should the PU speak up to get the call right without being asked. It's no shame on the BU he missed the call, BU was in a lousy position because of the lead runners, to see the pulled foot.

I MIGHT, (and this would depend on who my partner was) just MIGHT ask my partner about it after the game in the parking lot.

I WILL talk to my partner about it anytime (s)he asks, but away from coaches hearing range.

[NCASAUmp]

If I'm the BU? I'd hope the PU's life insurance is paid up before he pulls something like that on me.

Never, ever, EVER "overrule" another umpire. Read ASA 10-3-B.

I will bludgeon my partner in the parking lot if he attempts to throw me under the bus like that. If I need his help, I will ask for it.

[shagpal]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

If I'm the BU? I'd hope the PU's life insurance is paid up before he pulls something like that on me.

Never, ever, EVER "overrule" another umpire. Read ASA 10-3-B.

I will bludgeon my partner in the parking lot if he attempts to throw me under the bus like that. If I need his help, I will ask for it.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

Runners on 2nd and 3rd 1 out. 2 man crew high school game. Base ump is sitting behind SS. Ground ball to F6 throw is wide to F3 and F3 pulls her foot to make the catch. Base umpire calls out. From Base umpires view (almost 90 feet away and bad angle) no way to see foot pulled. Plate umpire stares at 1B coach after play looking like a cat who ate a canary dying for someone to ask what he saw.

Now IMO what should have happened is that the OC should have asked the Base umpire to check with his partner to see if his partner saw the foot pulled.

My question is at what threshold should the PU speak up to get the call right without being asked. It's no shame on the BU he missed the call, BU was in a lousy position because of the lead runners, to see the pulled foot.

Not long after I started I had a play like this where I was PU. I did the same thing this PU did of staring down there not believing what I had seen. I realized that it didn't make any sense to stand there and hustled back to my position. I felt bad about it afterward because had anybody in the park not been busy yelling at my partner about his call, they might have seen me as selling him up the river and I've made it a point not to do it since. I'd recommend the same for the PU in your scenario. [My partner was a solid umpire who happily came to me about the call once the coach asked him and we got it right.]
________
Vaporizer television

[PSUchem]

This exact situation happened to me last year. How it ended up for us:

I'm PU, the offense's head coach was sitting on a bucket on the third base side looking right down the line at the play. He sees the pulled foot. After BU had called the out and the play had ended, the coach calmly called time, walked out to me, and asked if I had seen a pulled foot. I explained "Coach, you have to go to BU and request that he ask for help. If he concurs, we will discuss it." The coach calmly walks to the BU, asks him to go for help. BU walks over to me and asks if I saw a pulled foot. I said that I had. My BU says with a nod "Ok then" and announces that the runner will be put back on first base.

I tell you what, the **** hit the fan on the defense's side, but we got the call right.

[shagpal]

late in a game, I was BU when my experienced PU partner made a safe call at home on a force that was clearly on the plate for an out. two players converged and I quickly moved towards the plate to help my partner with the players, but before I got there, my partner was threaten ejection, so both players moved away, and I was surprised that he was standing firm on staying with his call, and never asked me for help. I had a plain, not shocked face on.

after the game, he admitted that he had a brain fart, and felt bad since his call affected the outcome of the game. perhaps I didn't move in fast enuff to help clear players, so that might be my regret. but when you see players converging on your partner, move in quickly to help clear your partner some space. partners can think and regain thoughts better when there is breathing room.

Originally Posted by youngump

Not long after I started I had a play like this where I was PU. I did the same thing this PU did of staring down there not believing what I had seen. I realized that it didn't make any sense to stand there and hustled back to my position. I felt bad about it afterward because had anybody in the park not been busy yelling at my partner about his call, they might have seen me as selling him up the river and I've made it a point not to do it since. I'd recommend the same for the PU in your scenario. [My partner was a solid umpire who happily came to me about the call once the coach asked him and we got it right.]

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

Runners on 2nd and 3rd 1 out. 2 man crew high school game. Base ump is sitting behind SS. Ground ball to F6 throw is wide to F3 and F3 pulls her foot to make the catch. Base umpire calls out. From Base umpires view (almost 90 feet away and bad angle) no way to see foot pulled. Plate umpire stares at 1B coach after play looking like a cat who ate a canary dying for someone to ask what he saw.

Now IMO what should have happened is that the OC should have asked the Base umpire to check with his partner to see if his partner saw the foot pulled.

My question is at what threshold should the PU speak up to get the call right without being asked. It's no shame on the BU he missed the call, BU was in a lousy position because of the lead runners, to see the pulled foot.

NEVER.
NCASAump already gave you ASA's position on the subject....I'll add:

PONY Rule 11 Sec.6(a)
NCAA 15.9.2

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

Plate umpire stares at 1B coach after play looking like a cat who ate a canary dying for someone to ask what he saw.

Why would the PU stare at a coach knowing that if s/he raises the issue, he will lose one of the forty-two?

[Dutch Alex]

Dear fellows oversees,

I know: it's your game, we got it from you and we shall not change it.
However considder this.

In the OP is written BU is in C, with 2nd and 3th ocupied. Now BU ALWAYS have a bad angle on 1st.
That's why we, at least in the Neth.'s, are in B in this situation. Now we only have a difficult job to do on a pick-off on 3rd. There are a lot less calls on 3rd than on 1st in this situation. A matter of math...

Best of all is a 3-umpire crew!

[jmkupka]

This situation is standard at all of my pregame talks, and in 100 conversations, it's been 50/50, and I'm fine either way as long as we're on the same page:

My preference is, BU make the out call if the ball beats the runner, then if OC has an issue, BU asks PU if he saw a pulled foot.

I was originally taught to first point to my PU and ask "Did she hold the bag", then make my call. I just never liked that mechanic, and prefer the other way.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

This situation is standard at all of my pregame talks, and in 100 conversations, it's been 50/50, and I'm fine either way as long as we're on the same page:

My preference is, BU make the out call if the ball beats the runner, then if OC has an issue, BU asks PU if he saw a pulled foot.

I was originally taught to first point to my PU and ask "Did she hold the bag", then make my call. I just never liked that mechanic, and prefer the other way.

I, also was taught to ask your partner first before making the call and this is the method I prefer. I know that Mike doesn't like it, but I have never worked with him either!

If you choose to do this, it must be done judiciously, as your PU partner will have other responsibilities and there may be other runners moving around second and third base. Almost all of the umpires that I work with have been trained to hold near the plate to see the play at first before releasing to third for any potential call there. However, I have seen some PUs immediately release to third when the ball is hit and are not in any position to offer help. Most of the time, any other runners will have advanced one base or be holding at a base since the ball has remained in the infield on this play and the PU will be able to help.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

...My question is at what threshold should the PU speak up to get the call right without being asked. ...

As stated, there is no threshold. One umpire should never intervene on his partner's call. Since you asked about high school, NFHS 10-1-4, "No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked by the one making it." The look you describe all by itself would seem to come awfully close to violating this.

In situations like this, the coaching staff bears some responsibility for ensuring that the call is correct. An experienced coach understands not just the rules, but also the limitations of the 2 umpire system. If one of the offensive coaches saw the pulled foot, he should not be fuming or yelling or stomping, etc. He should merely be asking the BU to go for help to the PU since the foot was pulled. It shouldn't require any kind of "look" from the PU, either. If the OC did not ask, shame on him.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by Andy

If you choose to do this, it must be done judiciously, as your PU partner will have other responsibilities and there may be other runners moving around second and third base. Almost all of the umpires that I work with have been trained to hold near the plate to see the play at first before releasing to third for any potential call there. However, I have seen some PUs immediately release to third when the ball is hit and are not in any position to offer help. Most of the time, any other runners will have advanced one base or be holding at a base since the ball has remained in the infield on this play and the PU will be able to help.

Andy,

Speaking ASA and from JJ, if a runner is on second base and a ball is hit to the infielder with the first throw going to 1b, the plate umpire exits to the left and straight up the line with his/her head on a swivel to look at first. Given that you have done Men's B and A and open are next, there is a chance JJ will be your UIC . . .

Ron

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

I, also was taught to ask your partner first before making the call and this is the method I prefer. I know that Mike doesn't like it, but I have never worked with him either!

That's because if your partner cannot help you, and since you asked,
that means you are not sure you saw an out. And if you didn't see an out, how are you going to call it if your partner isn't available to help?

Too many things can go wrong with a hesitation and waiting for help that may not be there. After all, if there are any other runners, his responsibility AND priority must be them.