When to overrule

[Andy]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

This situation is standard at all of my pregame talks, and in 100 conversations, it's been 50/50, and I'm fine either way as long as we're on the same page:

My preference is, BU make the out call if the ball beats the runner, then if OC has an issue, BU asks PU if he saw a pulled foot.

I was originally taught to first point to my PU and ask "Did she hold the bag", then make my call. I just never liked that mechanic, and prefer the other way.

I, also was taught to ask your partner first before making the call and this is the method I prefer. I know that Mike doesn't like it, but I have never worked with him either!

If you choose to do this, it must be done judiciously, as your PU partner will have other responsibilities and there may be other runners moving around second and third base. Almost all of the umpires that I work with have been trained to hold near the plate to see the play at first before releasing to third for any potential call there. However, I have seen some PUs immediately release to third when the ball is hit and are not in any position to offer help. Most of the time, any other runners will have advanced one base or be holding at a base since the ball has remained in the infield on this play and the PU will be able to help.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by Andy

If you choose to do this, it must be done judiciously, as your PU partner will have other responsibilities and there may be other runners moving around second and third base. Almost all of the umpires that I work with have been trained to hold near the plate to see the play at first before releasing to third for any potential call there. However, I have seen some PUs immediately release to third when the ball is hit and are not in any position to offer help. Most of the time, any other runners will have advanced one base or be holding at a base since the ball has remained in the infield on this play and the PU will be able to help.

Andy,

Speaking ASA and from JJ, if a runner is on second base and a ball is hit to the infielder with the first throw going to 1b, the plate umpire exits to the left and straight up the line with his/her head on a swivel to look at first. Given that you have done Men's B and A and open are next, there is a chance JJ will be your UIC . . .

Ron

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

I, also was taught to ask your partner first before making the call and this is the method I prefer. I know that Mike doesn't like it, but I have never worked with him either!

That's because if your partner cannot help you, and since you asked,
that means you are not sure you saw an out. And if you didn't see an out, how are you going to call it if your partner isn't available to help?

Too many things can go wrong with a hesitation and waiting for help that may not be there. After all, if there are any other runners, his responsibility AND priority must be them.

[mach3]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That's because if your partner cannot help you, and since you asked,
that means you are not sure you saw an out. And if you didn't see an out, how are you going to call it if your partner isn't available to help?

Mike, isn't that a question of how you ask?
Coming from the same continent as DutchAlex, but a different country, we established the following for experianced crews (!):
In a sit, like the one in the OP, the BU should ask: "Did you see her pull the foot?"
That would enable the PU to answer "No!" in a case (s)he didn't look or judges the foot was not pulled. And "Yes" if (s)he saw it.

I don't think it means I did not see an out. It means from what I could see I had an out, but I might have missed one information and I will ask for it. Afterwards the BU will make the call.

But I guess our coaches are different from yours And it is more family like here in Germany since Softball is not quite as big as in the US

But in general I agree that the PU should NEVER overrule!
How should the PU know, that the BU is missing the information and not just had a different judgment on that situation? It might be easy writing down obvious Situations but in real life it is more complex!

Raoul

[NCASAUmp]

Greetings, mach3!

An umpire asking another umpire for help on a call is absolutely acceptable and happens all the time. It's perfectly normal for one umpire to seek out that information.

However, when a particular play is completely my call, it's inappropriate for another umpire to attempt to push their call and attempt to "overrule" me. In fact, the rules prohibit this.

If it's my call and I need help, I'll ask for it. Otherwise, all other umpires should keep their opinions to themselves.

Make sense?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mach3

Mike, isn't that a question of how you ask?
In a sit, like the one in the OP, the BU should ask: "Did you see her pull the foot?" That would enable the PU to answer "No!" in a case (s)he didn't look or judges the foot was not pulled. And "Yes" if (s)he saw it.

If you have to ask, that means you did not see an out, so how are you going to call an out if your partner has no answer or wasn't there? By asking, you have effectively questioned your own judgment.

I don't think it means I did not see an out. It means from what I could see I had an out, but I might have missed one information and I will ask for it. Afterwards the BU will make the call.

Then if all the information you have indicates an out, call it. BTW, while you and your partner are having this nice conversation, who is covering the play at 3B or home? Just because there may be a question doesn't mean the players stop playing.

[mach3]

@NCASA Ump: No disagreement. My Call, I CAN go for help but if not the call is my business and I have to live with it. And when it comes down to it my partner is there to help my to to show me off.

@IRISHMAFIA: Yes all, Information that I have indicates the out. But I am not sure if she lost contact during her stretch (due to the angle I had) AND the situation allows me to ask before I rule, why shouldn't I try to get the information my partner might have and include it into my call? Why should I wait for the coach to yell at me, ask for my partners information, turn the call and have the other coach in face?
Of course if my partner is busy or has no other information, I have to with what I got.

But I can see where you coming from. And we only have experienced Umps doing this and crews that are comfortable with it.

Raoul

[Snocatzdad]

Maybe I should have worded my post differently. I understand rule prohibits the PU to overrule. But would a PU call time and discuss with BU what he saw so in an effort to get the call right?

I guess I see basketball/football refs do this all the time, get together, confer, try to get it right. IMO if your paying a "team" of officials every set of eyes has value. It's interesting to find out that this seems to be a situation for softball where it is more important to most to handle it procedurally correct than get the call right. (because umpires seem to feel handling it prodedurally correct is getting it right, while most laymen would feel that F3 catching the ball off the bag is not an out)

[Dakota]

Part of the "procedure" as you put it involves the coaches. The OC needs to request time and tell the BU that he saw a pulled foot and request that the BU confer with his partner. That is how the call is gotten "right."

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

I, also was taught to ask your partner first before making the call and this is the method I prefer. I know that Mike doesn't like it, but I have never worked with him either!

If you choose to do this, it must be done judiciously, as your PU partner will have other responsibilities and there may be other runners moving around second and third base. Almost all of the umpires that I work with have been trained to hold near the plate to see the play at first before releasing to third for any potential call there. However, I have seen some PUs immediately release to third when the ball is hit and are not in any position to offer help. Most of the time, any other runners will have advanced one base or be holding at a base since the ball has remained in the infield on this play and the PU will be able to help.

Andy, for what it is worth, I have a problem with any "standard" mechanic which needs to be done judiciously. It is either the standard mechanic (to be done whenever that situation arises), or NOT the standard mechanic.

If it has that many holes that it can't or shouldn't be used sometimes, then it shouldn't be the standard.