Question for the NCAA Guys RE: Illegal Pitch

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

For those of you that don't have access to the rule:

Pitching Procedure
10.2 Taking the Signal from the Catcher

10.2.1 Before starting a pitch, the pitcher must comply with the following:

10.2.1.1 Both feet must be on the ground in contact with the pitcher’s
plate and a portion of the pivot foot must be on the top surface of
the pitcher’s plate. Both feet must be within the 24-inch length of the
pitcher’s plate.

10.2.1.2 Hands must be separated.

10.2.1.3 The ball must be held and remain in one hand, either bare or
gloved.

Notes:
1. Rolling (not tossing) the ball is legal as long as contact is maintained with the
hand including the wrist.
2. A ball dropped by the pitcher before her hands have come together and then
separated shall be live and base runner(s) may advance with liability to be put
out.

10.2.1.4 The ball may be held in front of, at the side of or behind the body.

10.2.2 While in this position, the pitcher must take (or simulate taking) a signal
from the catcher.

EFFECT (10.2.1 to 10.2.2)—Illegal pitch. (See Rule 10.8)


I have been told to enforce the rules as written, without discretion. So, to answer your question, no I haven't been instructed otherwise. So, the pitcher you were dicussing should have been called for an IP.

As described in the original question, which rule was broken?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

As described in the original question, which rule was broken?

"...for taking the signal from behind the plate."

I wasn't there and I trust that what the PU called is what he believes happened.

True, F1 can take or simulate the taking of a sign on the pitcher's plate, but apparently that isn't what happened based on the call and the explanation.

Why are we believing daddy's version when we don't have the PU's version?

[BretMan]

I'm not really asking anyone to believe one version or the other. I already allowed for the fact that maybe something was "lost in the translation", since I was getting a second hand account of the call. I tried getting all the information I could and tried to make sure I had an accurate account of what happened before posting.

All that is really irrelevant to my question. The question is "Does NCAA interpret this the same as does ASA/NFHS?", not "Who's account should you believe?".

[IRISHMAFIA]

My question would be how does the umpire know from where she was taking a signal?

I don't care how it is interpreted, until the umpire can answer this question, s/he shouldn't be making such a call.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

"...for taking the signal from behind the plate."

That's the point...
There is no rule aginst taking a signal from behind the plate...
If the umpire called that anytime BEFORE the pitcher's hands came together, he was dead wrong.
If he called it anythime after, he mis-stated the offense.

BRETMAN: to answer your question in a word: YES

[BretMan]

While searching through the NCAA web site for an interpretation on this, I came across a "Ask the Expert" section, headed by one Dee Abrahamson. I sent her an email with this question, figuring that I probably wouldn't hear anything back. I was sure that the NCAA folks have better things to do with their time!

To my surprise, I received a reply this evening.

"You are absolutely correct...she can take as many signals as she wants BUT must take, or simulate taking, the last one once positioned on the pitcher's plate.
Hope you can pass that along to her.

Dee Abrahamson

Senior Associate Athletic Director/SWA
Northern Illinois University
Convocation Center Suite 200
NCAA Softball Secretary Rules Editor"

That works for me!

[Az.Ump]

Same thing Emily said.

Paul

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Az.Ump

Same thing Emily said.

Paul

Same thing I said!!

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by BretMan

While searching through the NCAA web site for an interpretation on this, I came across a "Ask the Expert" section, headed by one Dee Abrahamson. I sent her an email with this question, figuring that I probably wouldn't hear anything back. I was sure that the NCAA folks have better things to do with their time!

To my surprise, I received a reply this evening.

"You are absolutely correct...she can take as many signals as she wants BUT must take, or simulate taking, the last one once positioned on the pitcher's plate.
Hope you can pass that along to her.

Dee Abrahamson

Senior Associate Athletic Director/SWA
Northern Illinois University
Convocation Center Suite 200
NCAA Softball Secretary Rules Editor"

That works for me!

Works for me too. Get the answer straight from the boss.
BTW...you're lucky Bret, I sent her a question two weeks ago, got a form type e-mail confirmation that it was received....but still waiting for the answer to my question.
KJ

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

"You are absolutely correct...she can take as many signals as she wants BUT must take, or simulate taking, the last one once positioned on the pitcher's plate.


That works for me!

Just the highlighted part of the comment will screw up people. To start, no one, NO ONE, but the pitcher knows exactly where she is getting her signal which it is not required, so I have no idea why people insist on including it in an explanation of an interpretation.

I understand why it may be necessary to use in the rules for the purpose of a point of reference, but even noting a "signal" is to be received or taken at any point just tends to confuse the point of the rule.

You would think a comment as plain and simple as, "the pitcher must come to an obvious and deliberate stop while on the pitcher's plate with their hands separated" prior to beginning the pitch.

F.Y.I., I'm not just referring to the NCAA here, but all rule sets.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Just the highlighted part of the comment will screw up people. To start, no one, NO ONE, but the pitcher knows exactly where she is getting her signal which it is not required, so I have no idea why people insist on including it in an explanation of an interpretation.

I understand why it may be necessary to use in the rules for the purpose of a point of reference, but even noting a "signal" is to be received or taken at any point just tends to confuse the point of the rule.

You would think a comment as plain and simple as, "the pitcher must come to an obvious and deliberate stop while on the pitcher's plate with their hands separated" prior to beginning the pitch.

F.Y.I., I'm not just referring to the NCAA here, but all rule sets.

There's your answer as to why none of the rule sets do it.....it's too plain, too simple, and makes too much common sense.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You would think a comment as plain and simple as, "the pitcher must come to an obvious and deliberate stop while on the pitcher's plate with their hands separated" prior to beginning the pitch.

Taking a signal or simulate taking a signal would also require that the pitcher be looking in at the catcher. So merely coming to an obvious and deliberate stop alone would not satisfy the requirements of the current rule. (What if the pitcher steps on, hands apart, motionless, but looking at the third baseman then brings her hands together to begin the pitch?)

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Taking a signal or simulate taking a signal would also require that the pitcher be looking in at the catcher. So merely coming to an obvious and deliberate stop alone would not satisfy the requirements of the current rule. (What if the pitcher steps on, hands apart, motionless, but looking at the third baseman then brings her hands together to begin the pitch?)

Is the purpose of the rule to regulate where the pitcher looks or is it to avoid a quick pitch?

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Taking a signal or simulate taking a signal would also require that the pitcher be looking in at the catcher. So merely coming to an obvious and deliberate stop alone would not satisfy the requirements of the current rule. (What if the pitcher steps on, hands apart, motionless, but looking at the third baseman then brings her hands together to begin the pitch?)

You're picking nits here...with everything we are required by NCAA mechanics to watch as a crew regarding IP's, why would we make the choice to focus on this one aspect of the Pitching Procedure (10.2) section of the Pitching rule?
IMO....I wouldn't.
My mental checklist as she comes up to the pitcher's plate (for legality) are hand (apart), feet, ball at side or front, [B]"taking a signal"[/B] from the catcher, hands (together/touch and in my vision), hands separating as the pitch starts.
Was she looking at the catcher when she was "taking the signal"? Yes. I saw her glance at the catcher as she was turing her head to look at her 3rd baseman.