Projected subs

[Andy]

I facilitated a clinic this year for HS umpires on substitutions.

I taught that you should only accept the changes as they happen, much like SC Ump describes. Keeps you out of trouble in case a coach changes his/her mind between now and then. Of course, the trouble is caused by the coach, but you still have to deal with it.

I may have to re-think this position based on this thread. I think that accepting the change in advance is probably OK with a mention to the coach that once he gives me the change it's official and if he changes his/her mind later, it's another change.

On a related side note - After a coach has subbed for a batter or runner in the offensive half of the inning, how many of you will ask if he intends to re-enter the subbed out player as the teams are changing from offense to defense?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

On a related side note - After a coach has subbed for a batter or runner in the offensive half of the inning, how many of you will ask if he intends to re-enter the subbed out player as the teams are changing from offense to defense?

I will make myself available to make reporting the re-entry as easy as possible. I generally will attempt to make eye contact with the head coach. But if the coach doesn't pick up, it is giving him/her an unfair advantage to remind them. There is a penalty that the opposing team is entitled to when one team doesn't report a re-entry; it just isn't neutral to help one team avoid what the other team is entitled to.

I had that just this week. A college coach made several substitutions, both batters and runners in a half inng (incidently, one was two changes made at the same time!!), but only reported she re-entered two of the three starters that inning. But she re-entered all three. The opposing coach waited; and protested at the most advantageous time. It erased a run!!

[IRISHMAFIA]

I think a lot of this has to do with the term "projected" changes.

A change is a change. If a coach comes to the umpire and makes a change, it takes effect immediately.

If the coach makes a statement along the lines of "in the next inning", or as in the OP (two changes involving the same player), to me, that is a projected change as they are asking for something to take effect in the future.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I think a lot of this has to do with the term "projected" changes.

First - - - Very good input from all on this whole thread. I do plan on changing the way I do this on offense and I will start accepting these multiple offensive changes.

The reason I started this was exactly that Mike mentions here about what "projected" means. I do not do ASA now, but when I first started ASA was all I did. My first year (1989), I attended a clinic facilitated by an ASA natioanal staff member. He noted that an offensive batter did not enter the game until they came up to bat and thus future batters were "projected". His specific example is what would you do if you accepted the third batter as a sub and then something happened to the batter or the coach changed their mind before they came up to bat; then you'd have a player subbed-in, then subbed-out, without ever actually entering the game.

After reading these responses and thinking a little more, I agree I was OOO a bit. Example: what if a sub is announced and then trips and busts his lip coming out of the dugout. You would still have a player subbed-in and subbed-out, without ever actually entering the game. (In this example with my old definition, I would have been allowing the couch to "project" the sub as much as 15 seconds in advance of when the sub actually came up. - - - I say in jest.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

He noted that an offensive batter did not enter the game until they came up to bat

Speaking ASA

This statement is true...well, almost as the player must have a pitch thrown or a play made....as it pertains to the rules involving unreported subs.

Another thing is the reference to batter, fielder, offense and defense. I think the easiest way to approach this subject is to remember when the coach comes to you with a substitution or re-entry, it isn't the the batter or fielder being changed. The change is with the the line-up. What the coach does with that line-up is subject to other rules and restrictions.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

First - - - Very good input from all on this whole thread. I do plan on changing the way I do this on offense and I will start accepting these multiple offensive changes.

The reason I started this was exactly that Mike mentions here about what "projected" means. I do not do ASA now, but when I first started ASA was all I did. My first year (1989), I attended a clinic facilitated by an ASA natioanal staff member. He noted that an offensive batter did not enter the game until they came up to bat and thus future batters were "projected". His specific example is what would you do if you accepted the third batter as a sub and then something happened to the batter or the coach changed their mind before they came up to bat; then you'd have a player subbed-in, then subbed-out, without ever actually entering the game.

After reading these responses and thinking a little more, I agree I was OOO a bit. Example: what if a sub is announced and then trips and busts his lip coming out of the dugout. You would still have a player subbed-in and subbed-out, without ever actually entering the game. (In this example with my old definition, I would have been allowing the couch to "project" the sub as much as 15 seconds in advance of when the sub actually came up. - - - I say in jest.)

Once a sub has been reported to the game umpire they are officially in the game. Therefore, if a coach reports that the first 3 batters are changing, they are official once reported and are not "projected subs".

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by rwest

Once a sub has been reported to the game umpire they are officially in the game. Therefore, if a coach reports that the first 3 batters are changing, they are official once reported and are not "projected subs".

Almost true. However, the umpire must accept that reporting before the sub is officially in the game.

Otherwise, there would be no way for the umpire to refuse an illegal substitution, as we are expected to as preventative officiating.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Almost true. However, the umpire must accept that reporting before the sub is officially in the game.

Otherwise, there would be no way for the umpire to refuse an illegal substitution, as we are expected to as preventative officiating.

How can an almost direct quote(i should have said "plate" instead of "game" umpire) from the rule book be almost true? I agree that the plate umpire has to accept the reporting. I assumed, as apparently the rule book does as well, that the umpire has accepted the substitute.

Suppose the coach wants to put in his flex to bat for someone other than the DP? Suppose he still insists on making the sub after you informed him that is illegal? Do you allow the sub and then wait for an appeal by the defense?