Appeal a turn toward second.

[SC Ump]

Question around FED 8-4-2(b)

R1 at 3B, no outs. BR hits ball to F5 and then is safe at 1B. She overruns down the right field line. R1 held at 3B and does not score.

While BR is approximate 30 or 40 feet down the line, she makes an attempt for 2B and then turns back toward 1B and just stops. F3 while holding the ball steps on 1B and appeals that F3 has made an attempt for second. BU rules B2 is out on appeal since F3 is not expected to chase B2 into right field to tag her out, especially with a runner at third.

Anyone disagree?

[SRW]

Yes. I disagree.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

Yes. I disagree.

Me, too. F3 would have been smarter to throw the ball to the pitcher in the circle.

[Tex]

I agree with the ruling. If the umpire did not honor the appeal and call the out, B2 could stop and just stand without returning to 1st base, F3 could stand on 1st base, and the 3rd base runner would stand off base. At some point the umpire must make a call to continue the ball game.

If the ball is thrown to the pitcher after the attempt, the defense has lost the out. There has to be an out for the attempt.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tex

I agree with the ruling. If the umpire did not honor the appeal and call the out, B2 could stop and just stand without returning to 1st base, F3 could stand on 1st base, and the 3rd base runner would stand off base. At some point the umpire must make a call to continue the ball game.

So when the runner heads toward 2B during the live ball without being tagged, how are you going to support the ruling when it is protested?

It's a live ball and the runner is allowed to advance at their own peril. Unless the runner missed the base (which is not part of this scenario), there is no appeal available at that point.

If the ball is thrown to the pitcher after the attempt, the defense has lost the out. There has to be an out for the attempt.

If F3 threw the ball to the pitcher in the circle, the LBR is in effect the the runner cannot change her mind.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Unless the runner missed the base (which is not part of this scenario), there is no appeal available at that point.

When a runner misses 1B and overruns, we call safe or out depending on where the runner was when the fielder received the throw. This is an appeal by the defense and must be done before the runner gets back to the base.

A lot of times F3 [or F4 covering 1B in bunt situations] will not realize the runner missed the base. Often times, the runner does realize s/he missed the base. Some runners are blatantly obvious in their attempt to get back, some are blatantly oblivious, some are very cool about it hoping no one noticed.

The question after all this is can anyone on the defense appeal the runner missing the base? Different for ASA/NFHS?

On a routine play, F1 or F4 may be in the best situation to see this [if they actually pay attention]. If they yell out "she missed the base!" do we accept the appeal as such, or must the runner be physically tagged?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

When a runner misses 1B and overruns, we call safe or out depending on where the runner was when the fielder received the throw. This is an appeal by the defense and must be done before the runner gets back to the base.

Yes, I'm well aware of that, but that was not the case here and only mentioned as the only live ball appeal available and resolved by simple touching the base while in possession of the ball.

A lot of times F3 [or F4 covering 1B in bunt situations] will not realize the runner missed the base. Often times, the runner does realize s/he missed the base. Some runners are blatantly obvious in their attempt to get back, some are blatantly oblivious, some are very cool about it hoping no one noticed.

Okay, still off topic.

The question after all this is can anyone on the defense appeal the runner missing the base? Different for ASA/NFHS?

No, that wasn't the question.

On a routine play, F1 or F4 may be in the best situation to see this [if they actually pay attention]. If they yell out "she missed the base!" do we accept the appeal as such, or must the runner be physically tagged?

Maybe you should start another thread instead of hijacking this one.

[Tex]

There is a proper live ball appeal with F3 holding the ball while standing on 1st base, concerning the batter-runner’s attempt toward 2nd base that must be addressed. I am not going to allow all 3 players to stop and stare at each other waiting for something to happen. The umpire must make a ruling on the live ball appeal before allowing the next part of this play to continue (that of the LBR to be in effect).

Allowing the LBR to be in effect allows all 3 players to go to their proper base / position as nothing happened, thus removing the live ball appeal.

Now how are you going to handle the protest of not addressing the proper live ball appeal of the batter runner’s attempt toward 2nd base at the proper time, and allowing this play to continue?

The live ball appeal must be addressed first.

Again I have an out on the batter-runner on the proper live ball appeal. Now throw the ball to F1 and engage the LBR and allow the play to continue.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

. . . since F3 is not expected to chase BR into right field. . .

Great input everyone. Thanks!

I'm positive I read this interpretation several years back, especially the part I have quoted above. (And, no, it was no it was not talking about BR running from F3, but specifically noted F3 not moving.)

The part I'm not positive about is how many years, which manual/magazine and whether it was SP, FP or even baseball. I'm pretty sure it was some place that I at least thought at the time was an authoritative source. Thanks for straighten me out.

[Tex]

Good discussion here.

What the group is saying is that:
1) A live ball appeal can not be made on the batter-runner while off base in this situation.
2) Also that the defense must force the issue and tag the batter-runner to get an out.

Now explain what is the umpire to do, if anything, when F3 stands on 1st base holding the ball, the batter-runner stands where she is (about 30 feet from 1st base), and the 3rd base runner stands off her base. They all stare at each other and no movement.

[RKBUmp]

Stand there and wait for someone to actually make a play.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Tex

Good discussion here.

What the group is saying is that:
1) A live ball appeal can not be made on the batter-runner while off base in this situation.
2) Also that the defense must force the issue and tag the batter-runner to get an out.

Now explain what is the umpire to do, if anything, when F3 stands on 1st base holding the ball, the batter-runner stands where she is (about 30 feet from 1st base), and the 3rd base runner stands off her base. They all stare at each other and no movement.

Anything we do must have the support of the rules. And, there is no rule support to do anything with this play. Until the players play this to a completion, live ball, play is in progress.

1) Runner is not out, because nothing makes the runner out.
2) You cannot properly call "time"; ASA 10.4-E "An umpire will not call time while any play is in progress ..." and ASA 10.4-H An umpire will not suspend play at the request of players, coaches or managers until all action in progress has been completed."

The most you can do is state something like "The ball is live until returned to the pitcher and runners return to their bases", or "I cannot call that runner out unless you tag her off the base", or "I cannot grant time will the ball is in play and runners are in jeopardy". Until they resolve it, you cannot actively "do" anything, or apply any rule.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Anything we do must have the support of the rules. And, there is no rule support to do anything with this play. Until the players play this to a completion, live ball, play is in progress.

1) Runner is not out, because nothing makes the runner out.
2) You cannot properly call "time"; ASA 10.4-E "An umpire will not call time while any play is in progress ..." and ASA 10.4-H An umpire will not suspend play at the request of players, coaches or managers until all action in progress has been completed."

The most you can do is state something like "The ball is live until returned to the pitcher and runners return to their bases", or "I cannot call that runner out unless you tag her off the base", or "I cannot grant time will the ball is in play and runners are in jeopardy". Until they resolve it, you cannot actively "do" anything, or apply any rule.

I don't think I've ever had this situation, however in similar situations (in FP), I have said something like, "Let's play ball" in my most officious umpire voice. Next thing I know they are doing something.

[Stevetheump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Anything we do must have the support of the rules. And, there is no rule support to do anything with this play. Until the players play this to a completion, live ball, play is in progress.

1) Runner is not out, because nothing makes the runner out.
2) You cannot properly call "time"; ASA 10.4-E "An umpire will not call time while any play is in progress ..." and ASA 10.4-H An umpire will not suspend play at the request of players, coaches or managers until all action in progress has been completed."

The most you can do is state something like "The ball is live until returned to the pitcher and runners return to their bases", or "I cannot call that runner out unless you tag her off the base", or "I cannot grant time will the ball is in play and runners are in jeopardy". Until they resolve it, you cannot actively "do" anything, or apply any rule.

Steve - It's NOT up to us to "coach" the players. Example: (ASA SP)I had R1 on 1st, no outs. Fly ball to right field. R1 comes off the base 5 FEET as the ball is in-flight (and I had him lined up with the RFer). The ball is caught by RF and R1 advances to 2nd without tagging up. Now, I'm THINKING "appeal play." The ball is thrown to an infielder and I DELAYED calling "time." The 3rd baseman says: "Blue, he left the base too soon." I say nothing. The ball is then thrown to the pitcher. It is now obvious to me NO appeal play is forthcoming. So now I call "time." I go back behind HP, the next batter comes up and I signal/call "play ball." The defense never repeated the appeal. Had they simply STATED the appeal during the "dead ball" period, I would have ruled the runner out. And, was I ever ready to ring him up.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Stevetheump

Steve - It's NOT up to us to "coach" the players. Example: (ASA SP)I had R1 on 1st, no outs. Fly ball to right field. R1 comes off the base 5 FEET as the ball is in-flight (and I had him lined up with the RFer). The ball is caught by RF and R1 advances to 2nd without tagging up. Now, I'm THINKING "appeal play." The ball is thrown to an infielder and I DELAYED calling "time." The 3rd baseman says: "Blue, he left the base too soon." I say nothing. The ball is then thrown to the pitcher. It is now obvious to me NO appeal play is forthcoming. So now I call "time." I go back behind HP, the next batter comes up and I signal/call "play ball." The defense never repeated the appeal. Had they simply STATED the appeal during the "dead ball" period, I would have ruled the runner out. And, was I ever ready to ring him up.

IMO, that may have been over-officious and missed the play. If all play was apparently completed, which means R1 is not showing any indication of advancing to the next or previous base and the defense wasn't attempting to make a live ball appeal, you probably should have called time and accepted the appeal.

Don't know why you would delay calling time if nothing was imminent.

BTW, the ball is not dead when a pitch hits the ground in all SP.