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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 13, 2010, 07:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Get into position and stay alert. Expect a tag attempt, a pickoff throw, or the ball getting to the pitcher in the circle. Let the players play and the coaches coach.

We're getting into the twilight zone here. Has anyone ever had a stalemate last longer than a minute, or even a few seconds, before someone did something?

I might respond to any comments or questions directed at me with "live ball" or "That's not an appeal". And I might be quick to call the game for darkness when we actually reach twilight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Just stay with the play. Move to the best possible position for any possible subsequent play. The players have coaches and teammates to help them react and perform on the field and you have........yourself and the mechanics. You just do your job which does not include making up for the players' shortcomings. It is their job to know how to play the game, our job to officiate it.
That was not what I meant. I guess I assumed that part, always optimizing position, alertness, not being in the way, etc.

I intended the question to be about handling the non-playing result:
- fielder coming to you with an argument
- runner doing the same
- base coach getting in the way while complaining
- activity like that
any or all of which confuses or disrupts the situation to the point of something having to be done. For example, at what point do you
- hold up a hand to dissuade the arguer
- back away a little to indicate there is no play going on
- verbally exert more control
- etc., like the red wording above?
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Old Sat Feb 13, 2010, 07:35pm
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 13, 2010, 08:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
That was not what I meant. I guess I assumed that part, always optimizing position, alertness, not being in the way, etc.

I intended the question to be about handling the non-playing result:
- fielder coming to you with an argument
- runner doing the same
- base coach getting in the way while complaining
- activity like that
Just about the same. Stay with the play. If they get in the way, step around them. If they block you out, I guess you cannot see their teammate just put out the runner. Whatever you do, you stay with the play. If the coach interferes with the play, eject him when the play is over. I s/he physically keeps you from doing your job and you feel you have to kill the play, do so. Award runners the bases you believed they would have made had the coach not interfered with you and eject the coach.

Quote:
any or all of which confuses or disrupts the situation to the point of something having to be done. For example, at what point do you
- hold up a hand to dissuade the arguer
- back away a little to indicate there is no play going on
- verbally exert more control
- etc., like the red wording above?
All are possibilities, but stay with the play.
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Last edited by IRISHMAFIA; Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 08:11pm.
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Old Sun Feb 14, 2010, 07:12pm
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Re-state the play? (or not)

If someone would like to aid my understanding of this latest part of this discussion......

Please re-state specifically the play being "appealed" or not appealed.
And also specifically state the actions of the defense in "appealing".

I use quotation marks because I understand that part of the question is whether or not a proper appeal is being made..

.............never mind.......
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2010, 08:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Just about the same. Stay with the play. If they get in the way, step around them. If they block you out, I guess you cannot see their teammate just put out the runner. Whatever you do, you stay with the play. If the coach interferes with the play, eject him when the play is over. I s/he physically keeps you from doing your job and you feel you have to kill the play, do so. Award runners the bases you believed they would have made had the coach not interfered with you and eject the coach.



All are possibilities, but stay with the play.
Why would you think anyone would not stay with the play?
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 15, 2010, 03:39pm
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I think I need to clarify to help move the discussion.

what mike is trying to describe, is how he would do nothing, which is silly. his description is trying to describe how he's really not advocating being frozen. what the do nothing camp is really saying is just do as you normally do, but don't say a word, since any uttering could result in something undesirable. it's like saying, "you have the right to remain silent", so stay silent, STFU, and call your safe & outs, and your balls & strikes.

my position isn't that doing nothing is wrong, on the contrary. my position is that if doing nothing appears to be causing more harm than good, staying with that approach is a cop-out, and I believe the umpires manuals suggest that to be the case as well.

the problem w/ the do nothing camp is their stubbornness, rigidity, and I think their arrogance. their answer lies in the umpire manuals. all they have to do is point out the difference between the NHFS umpires manual, and the CCA umpires manual. the CCA manual does a much better job of clarifying.

the mechanic to apply as I am reading this, is first, wait and pause, and do nothing. that is consistent w/ the do nothing camp. the reason being, this attempted appeal is an action-only appeal, attempted by a possibly wrong action (depending on what's being appealed). I am fully aware of this and am not oblivious to this as the do nothings continue to peddle.

second, if it is clearly obvious that the player on 1B with possession of the ball and touching the bag is attempting to invoke an appeal, the responsible umpire should ask what is being requested, and of what player. the reason for this is because perhaps player on 1B really wants to appeal a missed bag, and the umpire, doing nothing, thinks otherwise. it's the responsible umpires obligation to clarify the request, given the OP's scenario. there is nothing in the manual that indicates this can't be done while the ball is live.

the do nothing camp might insist it is verboten to even utter anything to clarify, even tho the umpire manuals clearly state it is appropriate to do so. after clarification, I would rule either on the missed bag, or if player on 1B requests a check of BR attempting second, I might reply w/ something like "I got nothing".

the point where the responsible umpire should clarify, is where I differ from the do nothing guys. the do nothing guys might insist that speaking during live play is verboten, but I can't find anything in the umpires manual that suggests such. the do nothings might say it's okay to clarify but afterwards to return back to doing nothing. I would disagree, because at that point it's already abundantly clear to everyone something is being requested. once it's gone that far, there is no turning back to doing nothing.

why "I have nothing"? well, it's partially compliant with the do nothing camp, so it makes them happy. it's got nothing in the sentence. if redirected by a partner, it's a simple, "partner, I have nothing". this might or might not work, but is equivalently close to saying nothing, without saying nothing. this is the best thing I could come up w/ and still not infuriate the do nothings.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Why would you think anyone would not stay with the play?
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 15, 2010, 03:55pm
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by shagpal View Post
I think I need to clarify to help move the discussion.

what mike is trying to describe, is how he would do nothing, which is silly. his description is trying to describe how he's really not advocating being frozen. what the do nothing camp is really saying is just do as you normally do, but don't say a word, since any uttering could result in something undesirable. it's like saying, "you have the right to remain silent", so stay silent, STFU, and call your safe & outs, and your balls & strikes.

my position isn't that doing nothing is wrong, on the contrary. my position is that if doing nothing appears to be causing more harm than good, staying with that approach is a cop-out, and I believe the umpires manuals suggest that to be the case as well.

the problem w/ the do nothing camp is their stubbornness, rigidity, and I think their arrogance. their answer lies in the umpire manuals. all they have to do is point out the difference between the NHFS umpires manual, and the CCA umpires manual. the CCA manual does a much better job of clarifying.

the mechanic to apply as I am reading this, is first, wait and pause, and do nothing. that is consistent w/ the do nothing camp. the reason being, this attempted appeal is an action-only appeal, attempted by a possibly wrong action (depending on what's being appealed). I am fully aware of this and am not oblivious to this as the do nothings continue to peddle.

second, if it is clearly obvious that the player on 1B with possession of the ball and touching the bag is attempting to invoke an appeal, the responsible umpire should ask what is being requested, and of what player. the reason for this is because perhaps player on 1B really wants to appeal a missed bag, and the umpire, doing nothing, thinks otherwise. it's the responsible umpires obligation to clarify the request, given the OP's scenario. there is nothing in the manual that indicates this can't be done while the ball is live.

the do nothing camp might insist it is verboten to even utter anything to clarify, even tho the umpire manuals clearly state it is appropriate to do so. after clarification, I would rule either on the missed bag, or if player on 1B requests a check of BR attempting second, I might reply w/ something like "I got nothing".

the point where the responsible umpire should clarify, is where I differ from the do nothing guys. the do nothing guys might insist that speaking during live play is verboten, but I can't find anything in the umpires manual that suggests such. the do nothings might say it's okay to clarify but afterwards to return back to doing nothing. I would disagree, because at that point it's already abundantly clear to everyone something is being requested. once it's gone that far, there is no turning back to doing nothing.

why "I have nothing"? well, it's partially compliant with the do nothing camp, so it makes them happy. it's got nothing in the sentence. if redirected by a partner, it's a simple, "partner, I have nothing". this might or might not work, but is equivalently close to saying nothing, without saying nothing. this is the best thing I could come up w/ and still not infuriate the do nothings.
What office are you running for?
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2010, 04:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
What office are you running for?
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 15, 2010, 07:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Why would you think anyone would not stay with the play?
Because people screaming to/at you from another part of the field may be distracting especially if you "wish" to provide them with some type of indication to their query which could be more confusing than not.

You have been around long enough that I'm pretty sure you have experienced the following:

You are staying with a runner who may or may not miss a base. During the play, you hear another player (let's say F3) scream, "Blue! Blue! He missed 1st base!!!"

You stay with your mechanics and take the runner into 3rd base as the ball is coming in from the outfield. From behind you hear, "BLUE! BLUE?"

You check to make sure the runner is done, suspend play by calling "TIME", take a second look at the runner, turn around and address the player attempting to make an appeal.

You have now:
  • Completed your obligations to stay with the runner;
  • Made sure the play was over before suspending play;
  • Checked to make sure the runner isn't going to attempt to return and touch all bases;
  • Addressed the player making an appeal in a proper and professional manner;
  • And you now have a situation where a dead ball appeal can be made to the proper umpire in a calm fashion.
At no time did you allow yourself to be distracted or do anything that could distract or confuse anyone else.
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Old Tue Feb 16, 2010, 04:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Because people screaming to/at you from another part of the field may be distracting especially if you "wish" to provide them with some type of indication to their query which could be more confusing than not.

You have been around long enough that I'm pretty sure you have experienced the following:

You are staying with a runner who may or may not miss a base. During the play, you hear another player (let's say F3) scream, "Blue! Blue! He missed 1st base!!!"

You stay with your mechanics and take the runner into 3rd base as the ball is coming in from the outfield. From behind you hear, "BLUE! BLUE?"

You check to make sure the runner is done, suspend play by calling "TIME", take a second look at the runner, turn around and address the player attempting to make an appeal.

You have now:
  • Completed your obligations to stay with the runner;
  • Made sure the play was over before suspending play;
  • Checked to make sure the runner isn't going to attempt to return and touch all bases;
  • Addressed the player making an appeal in a proper and professional manner;
  • And you now have a situation where a dead ball appeal can be made to the proper umpire in a calm fashion.
At no time did you allow yourself to be distracted or do anything that could distract or confuse anyone else.
OK, the answer is you are concerned about an umpire being distracted by the chaos or another umpire's play. Got it.

Always nice to see a thorough and coherent post which is on point.

Now that I read the above, I have probably fulfilled ny clinic requirement.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 23, 2010, 11:37am
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Similar Type Play

Not that this tread is long enough, but I had a play that was similar to the original question this past weekend. When it happened I thought of this tread.

Ball hit to F7 where the grass is wet. R1 stops on 3rd. F7 throws ball to F2. F2 tries to hand me the ball for a dry one. I just stand there. F2 again tries to get me to give her a dry ball. I just stand there. Finally, the defensive coach realized what was happening and told F2 to throw the ball to F1. When she did, R1 immediately broke for home. F1 made a bad throw to F2 and R1 slid in safely at home.

Guess who got mad at me. Defensive coach and all the parents. My response to the coach was that I could not kill the play until the pitcher had the ball in the circle and all play had stopped. She said what kind of stupid rule is that. I could not help but smile at her foolish remark and that made her even madder. After the game, the coach told me that I was right and apologized for her behavior.

I love early season games!!


Did I handle the situation correctly?
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Old Tue Feb 23, 2010, 01:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strike4 View Post
Not that this tread is long enough, but I had a play that was similar to the original question this past weekend. When it happened I thought of this tread.

Ball hit to F7 where the grass is wet. R1 stops on 3rd. F7 throws ball to F2. F2 tries to hand me the ball for a dry one. I just stand there. F2 again tries to get me to give her a dry ball. I just stand there. Finally, the defensive coach realized what was happening and told F2 to throw the ball to F1. When she did, R1 immediately broke for home. F1 made a bad throw to F2 and R1 slid in safely at home.

Guess who got mad at me. Defensive coach and all the parents. My response to the coach was that I could not kill the play until the pitcher had the ball in the circle and all play had stopped. She said what kind of stupid rule is that. I could not help but smile at her foolish remark and that made her even madder. After the game, the coach told me that I was right and apologized for her behavior.

I love early season games!!


Did I handle the situation correctly?
If all play has stopped you can call time. You don't have to wait until the ball is back in the circle. If you know the grass is wet and you need to replace the ball each time it goes into the grass, then why make her return it to the pitcher before you call time so she can throw it back to the catcher?
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