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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 03:55pm
Ref Ump Welsch
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Whew...I'm glad I do SP.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 04:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch View Post
Whew...I'm glad I do SP.
Why? Same rule applies.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 05:26pm
Ref Ump Welsch
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Why? Same rule applies.
That is if the league is using base stealing, and the BB was not the result of a dead ball.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 06:43pm
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Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch View Post
That is if the league is using base stealing, and the BB was not the result of a dead ball.
If there is stealing a walk cannot be a dead ball unless the ball lands in front of or on the plate or hits the batter.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 12:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umpirebob71 View Post
Why in the world would a catcher throw to first base on ball four with a runner on third?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamG View Post
To prevent the runner going to 2nd.

R1 on 3rd, B2 walks. Less than 2 outs. In the "early leagues" (12U and under?), I don't think it's unusual for the offense to send B2 to 2nd base (don't stop on 1st at all, just round and run. If successful, now you have R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd.

How do you defend? I've seen some teams throw the ball to 1st, make sure the BR stops, then throw to the pitcher. Other teams will have the pitcher try to make a play, others will just let it happen. If the D tries to make any kind of play on the BR, R1 will generally score (unless you've got some great playmakers on D).
throwing to first base might be the dumbest "strategy" to prevent the runner from going to 2nd.... how about throwing the ball back to the pitcher??? that seems to work just fine in baseball.

ive watched maybe 2 womens fastpitch games in my life (both were NCAA D1), but im having a hard time imagining, even in youth leagues, how a runner can get to 2nd on a walk and not be put out. can the girls not throw the ball 85'????
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 01:08am
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Yeah, they can throw the ball 85 feet. The problem is- at least for younger kids or lower level ball- is that in the time it takes for the catcher to throw it 85 feet to second base, then put a tag on the runner, then make another 85 foot throw to home, the runner on third will have advanced all the way to the plate and maybe even have scored.

That's really the only time you'll see this play- when there is a runner on third and the offense wants to draw a throw to second to give the run a chance to score. You'll probably never see this play in an NCAA game. I rarely see it in travel ball for anything over 14 year olds. It's a little more frequent in high school ball where the player's skill might be a few notches below travel ball. I have never seen it in a men's fastpitch game.

It's a common enough tactic that coaches have come up with all sorts of defenses against it, like throwing the ball to F3 while inside the bag, throwing to F4 somewhere in the baseline or having F6 come in and cut off the throw in front of second. Depending on the score or game situation, many will just concede second base to prevent the runner on third from advancing, figuring that a runner on first will go ahead and steal second on the next pitch anyway. If a team has a good lead and one out already, they might concede the run and try for the out at second.

Lot's can go wrong when you try to defend this. If you want to get the runner at the plate, it's going to take two quick, accurate throws and some pretty good ball handling. The more you can force the defense to handle the ball, the more chance of something going wrong. Plus, if your fielders aren't all on the same page or haven't practiced for these situations, the chance of something going wrong is even greater.

But I do agree- in fastpitch, where the Look Back Rule comes into play, usually the best defense is to just fire the ball back to the pitcher. That forces the runner on third to commit one way or the other and that will usually get her back on third. It also prevents the runner rounding first from doing any real dancing around and forces her to get back on first or advance to second without delay.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 07:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveshane67 View Post
ive watched maybe 2 womens fastpitch games in my life (both were NCAA D1), but im having a hard time imagining, even in youth leagues, how a runner can get to 2nd on a walk and not be put out. can the girls not throw the ball 85'????
Bretman described it well... you can't compare what you saw in D1 with a 12U team. Even the girls who might have the strength to make the throw between 2nd & home won't generally have the accuracy or the speed to catch R1 at the plate.

Keep in mind R1 should have a good lead off on the pitch and won't start back until the pitcher gets the ball. Even a slow runner should be able to make it home before F3/F6 even fields the throw much less get it back to home.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 07:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
But I do agree- in fastpitch, where the Look Back Rule comes into play, usually the best defense is to just fire the ball back to the pitcher. That forces the runner on third to commit one way or the other and that will usually get her back on third. It also prevents the runner rounding first from doing any real dancing around and forces her to get back on first or advance to second without delay.
That is the best defense in all situations in all games. NO one defender is closer to all the locations of a possible play than the pitcher. NO one defender is going to have the shortest throw than the pitcher.

And the problem is many coaches all think they can come up with some sort of new play that no one has ever tried before and it just isn't there.

IMO, the only reason the INT on a BR that has been walked arose is because some catcher was dumb enough to hit the BR on the way to 1B where there was no play and the coach, being the all-american that s/he he is, had to find someone to blame for it and sold that bill of goods to some putz.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 08:40am
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I have a coach royaly ticked at me from a game last night over the this type of play.

Runner on 3, batter is walked rounds 1st and takes off for 2nd. Ball was thrown right back to the pitcher and no attempt was made on the BR. Runner on 3 is just standing there doing nothing. I killed the play, called the runner out for the LB violation and put the BR back at 1st. Coach is just standing there with his jaw on the ground and all the parents are going nuts. The coach finally came over and asked me to explain the call. I gave him a brief explanation of the look back requirements and he walked away still looking bewildered.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 09:34am
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RKBUmp that is the call that needs to be made more often. I've seen the runner on third retreat, then lead off again all while ball is in the circle and everyone (including umpires) is so fascinated with girl streaking from 1b to 2b that they miss the violation on 3B. My girls have been guilty of this as well and not been called out, but the fact that they should have been called out usually results in a minor heart attack for the 3B coach who will specifically remind them that they LBR is in effect. That's the problem with confusion plays, sometimes you confuse yourself

BTW when I say ball in the circle I mean that no attempt to make a play is being made, so LBR is in effect.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 10:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post

IMO, the only reason the INT on a BR that has been walked arose is because some catcher was dumb enough to hit the BR on the way to 1B where there was no play and the coach, being the all-american that s/he he is, had to find someone to blame for it and sold that bill of goods to some putz.

Yep, that about sums it up pretty nicely.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 11:12am
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Originally Posted by wadeintothem View Post
Yep, that about sums it up pretty nicely.
The board was more lively when Wade and Irish argued about everything instead of agreeing with each other.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 11:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
...IMO, the only reason the INT on a BR that has been walked arose is because ...someone... sold that bill of goods to some putz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
...because Mary Struckhoff says so.
.... OK.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 12:32pm
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Being unfamiliar with this Mary Struckhoff other than by name, upon a quick googlingseems to me she is more aptly suited and experienced for Basketball interps than softball interps.

Plus she doesnt look so bad.

To OOO this call is wrong at any level or in any org.

I think all of us would call INT on this play in a "know it when I see it" once in a career call.

Other than that, this is an idiotic call.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 01:29pm
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Even with the NFHS case study, it says if in the umpires judgement there was a "legitimate play". I find it very hard to imagine what reason there would be to attempt a play at 1st base on a walked batter. If they want to throw down to F3 to hold the runner there that is one thing, but F3 has no reason to be set up on the bag or for a throw to be right down the line.

As Wade said, I guess Ill know it when I see it.
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