3' running lane violation on BB?

[PSUchem]

Hi everyone. Long time lurker here. Here's a situation that has been bothering me for years, and I've received varying answers from fellow umpires. Fortunately, this situation has never arisen during play but is one that I've thought of as a possible problem.

For example, with a runner on third with any number of outs and the batter issued a walk... It is common practice by some teams to throw the ball to the first baseman to ensure that the batter does not take second on the walk. Is it possible that if the batter is running down to first in fair territory, that she might be out for interference if the thrown ball contacts her? I know that the batter is entitled to "advance without liability to be put out;" however, the same goes for a runner obstructed by a fielder (cannot be put out between the bases she was obstructed), but an interference call would override the obstruction. Could the same be considered for the walk situation? That an interference call could override the "not liable to be put out?"
If this is not the case, I could envision a situation that the ball hits the batter and rolls away, enabling the runner to score from third. Confusing, since in a batted ball situation, the batter would be out.

How would you rule this situation, both ASA and Fed?

Straight from the NFHS website, under the video clips: "A base on balls does not negate the batter-runner's requirement to use the 3' lane."
Three-Foot Running Lane Violation - Dartfish.tv

[umpirebob71]

Why in the world would a catcher throw to first base on ball four with a runner on third?

[MrRabbit]

Ok Just because...

2 outs, runner on third... Catcher throws to first and hits batter / runner out of running lane and hits her... What do you call ?

[RKBUmp]

NFHS case study Rule 8 Page 49. Ruling, If the umpire judges that the batter-runner interfered with a legitimate play by the catcher, she should be called out.

My question is how would this be considered a legitimate play? The batter-runner received a base on balls and is entitled to 1st base without liability to be put out. Im not sure I see a legitimate reason for the catcher to be throwing to 1st, especially with a runner on 3rd.

Based on the video, however, I see a real potential for a coach to abuse the rule to try and get a free out.

Dont have an ASA case study book and dont see anything regarding a walk and running lane violation in the rules supplements.

[MrRabbit]

RKBUmp if you will please note the comment listed with Rule 8 on page 49...8.2.5 SITUATION B:

COMMENT: All bases must be run legally, even awarded bases.

So a award of a walk ( base on balls) is not a free pass to first base... There is still liability to be put out...

Same in ASA...

A walk is still a live ball situation...

[RKBUmp]

I realize that it states the bases must be run legally, but, it also states there must be a legitimate play. There is no play on a walked batter at 1st base until they pass the base and turn toward 2nd, so F3 has no reason to be setup on the bag.

Merely being out of the lane and getting hit by the ball is not automatically interference. Was there a play? Was the throw on target and catchable? Did the catcher try to bean the BR on purpose?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

RKBUmp if you will please note the comment listed with Rule 8 on page 49...8.2.5 SITUATION B:

COMMENT: All bases must be run legally, even awarded bases.

So a award of a walk ( base on balls) is not a free pass to first base... There is still liability to be put out...

Same in ASA...

A walk is still a live ball situation...

As Steve notes, it is NOT the same in ASA.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by umpirebob71

Why in the world would a catcher throw to first base on ball four with a runner on third?

To prevent the runner going to 2nd.

R1 on 3rd, B2 walks. Less than 2 outs. In the "early leagues" (12U and under?), I don't think it's unusual for the offense to send B2 to 2nd base (don't stop on 1st at all, just round and run. If successful, now you have R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd.

How do you defend? I've seen some teams throw the ball to 1st, make sure the BR stops, then throw to the pitcher. Other teams will have the pitcher try to make a play, others will just let it happen. If the D tries to make any kind of play on the BR, R1 will generally score (unless you've got some great playmakers on D).

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by umpirebob71

Why in the world would a catcher throw to first base on ball four with a runner on third?

Originally Posted by SamG

To prevent the runner going to 2nd.

R1 on 3rd, B2 walks. Less than 2 outs. In the "early leagues" (12U and under?), I don't think it's unusual for the offense to send B2 to 2nd base (don't stop on 1st at all, just round and run. If successful, now you have R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd.

How do you defend? I've seen some teams throw the ball to 1st, make sure the BR stops, then throw to the pitcher. Other teams will have the pitcher try to make a play, others will just let it happen. If the D tries to make any kind of play on the BR, R1 will generally score (unless you've got some great playmakers on D).

throwing to first base might be the dumbest "strategy" to prevent the runner from going to 2nd.... how about throwing the ball back to the pitcher??? that seems to work just fine in baseball.

ive watched maybe 2 womens fastpitch games in my life (both were NCAA D1), but im having a hard time imagining, even in youth leagues, how a runner can get to 2nd on a walk and not be put out. can the girls not throw the ball 85'????

[BretMan]

Yeah, they can throw the ball 85 feet. The problem is- at least for younger kids or lower level ball- is that in the time it takes for the catcher to throw it 85 feet to second base, then put a tag on the runner, then make another 85 foot throw to home, the runner on third will have advanced all the way to the plate and maybe even have scored.

That's really the only time you'll see this play- when there is a runner on third and the offense wants to draw a throw to second to give the run a chance to score. You'll probably never see this play in an NCAA game. I rarely see it in travel ball for anything over 14 year olds. It's a little more frequent in high school ball where the player's skill might be a few notches below travel ball. I have never seen it in a men's fastpitch game.

It's a common enough tactic that coaches have come up with all sorts of defenses against it, like throwing the ball to F3 while inside the bag, throwing to F4 somewhere in the baseline or having F6 come in and cut off the throw in front of second. Depending on the score or game situation, many will just concede second base to prevent the runner on third from advancing, figuring that a runner on first will go ahead and steal second on the next pitch anyway. If a team has a good lead and one out already, they might concede the run and try for the out at second.

Lot's can go wrong when you try to defend this. If you want to get the runner at the plate, it's going to take two quick, accurate throws and some pretty good ball handling. The more you can force the defense to handle the ball, the more chance of something going wrong. Plus, if your fielders aren't all on the same page or haven't practiced for these situations, the chance of something going wrong is even greater.

But I do agree- in fastpitch, where the Look Back Rule comes into play, usually the best defense is to just fire the ball back to the pitcher. That forces the runner on third to commit one way or the other and that will usually get her back on third. It also prevents the runner rounding first from doing any real dancing around and forces her to get back on first or advance to second without delay.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

But I do agree- in fastpitch, where the Look Back Rule comes into play, usually the best defense is to just fire the ball back to the pitcher. That forces the runner on third to commit one way or the other and that will usually get her back on third. It also prevents the runner rounding first from doing any real dancing around and forces her to get back on first or advance to second without delay.

That is the best defense in all situations in all games. NO one defender is closer to all the locations of a possible play than the pitcher. NO one defender is going to have the shortest throw than the pitcher.

And the problem is many coaches all think they can come up with some sort of new play that no one has ever tried before and it just isn't there.

IMO, the only reason the INT on a BR that has been walked arose is because some catcher was dumb enough to hit the BR on the way to 1B where there was no play and the coach, being the all-american that s/he he is, had to find someone to blame for it and sold that bill of goods to some putz.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

ive watched maybe 2 womens fastpitch games in my life (both were NCAA D1), but im having a hard time imagining, even in youth leagues, how a runner can get to 2nd on a walk and not be put out. can the girls not throw the ball 85'????

Bretman described it well... you can't compare what you saw in D1 with a 12U team. Even the girls who might have the strength to make the throw between 2nd & home won't generally have the accuracy or the speed to catch R1 at the plate.

Keep in mind R1 should have a good lead off on the pitch and won't start back until the pitcher gets the ball. Even a slow runner should be able to make it home before F3/F6 even fields the throw much less get it back to home.