3' running lane violation on BB?

[umpirebob71]

Why in the world would a catcher throw to first base on ball four with a runner on third?

[MrRabbit]

Ok Just because...

2 outs, runner on third... Catcher throws to first and hits batter / runner out of running lane and hits her... What do you call ?

[RKBUmp]

NFHS case study Rule 8 Page 49. Ruling, If the umpire judges that the batter-runner interfered with a legitimate play by the catcher, she should be called out.

My question is how would this be considered a legitimate play? The batter-runner received a base on balls and is entitled to 1st base without liability to be put out. Im not sure I see a legitimate reason for the catcher to be throwing to 1st, especially with a runner on 3rd.

Based on the video, however, I see a real potential for a coach to abuse the rule to try and get a free out.

Dont have an ASA case study book and dont see anything regarding a walk and running lane violation in the rules supplements.

[MrRabbit]

RKBUmp if you will please note the comment listed with Rule 8 on page 49...8.2.5 SITUATION B:

COMMENT: All bases must be run legally, even awarded bases.

So a award of a walk ( base on balls) is not a free pass to first base... There is still liability to be put out...

Same in ASA...

A walk is still a live ball situation...

[RKBUmp]

I realize that it states the bases must be run legally, but, it also states there must be a legitimate play. There is no play on a walked batter at 1st base until they pass the base and turn toward 2nd, so F3 has no reason to be setup on the bag.

Merely being out of the lane and getting hit by the ball is not automatically interference. Was there a play? Was the throw on target and catchable? Did the catcher try to bean the BR on purpose?

[Snocatzdad]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

I realize that it states the bases must be run legally, but, it also states there must be a legitimate play. There is no play on a walked batter at 1st base until they pass the base and turn toward 2nd, so F3 has no reason to be setup on the bag.

As stated before walk is a live ball situation, other runners on base or not the runner has the option to run to 2B after getting to 1B. I would not try to lock down that runner by throwing to 1B, but... it is a legitamate defensive strategy, just not a great one because the when F3 throws back to the pitcher the runner can take off for 2B because it's still a live ball until LBR kills the play.

Some coaches assume that if they can lock down runner on 1B and F3 has relatively short throw home then R1 on 3B will retreat, but reality is that F3's throw to 3B is long and R1 has no reason to not continue to lead off until ball is returned to the pitcher.

[wadeintothem]

I'm not there to supplement crappy defense... so I'd have to really see int.

So .. probably nothing from me unless there really was an act of int which did not include simply trotting to 1b while a catcher makes a bad throw.

[RadioBlue]

Seems to me there's plenty of opinion to go 'round on this topic ... and a lot of it seems to be in direct violation of the rules.

Whether or not a defense is, in our opinion, making a smart play, or not, has no bearing on this play whatsoever. The rules are the rules. If the BR is out of the running lane and she interferes with the throw, she is out.

Another instance where a defense may throw to first is late in the game with a one-run lead or a tie. You have to let the defense play defense. And the offense is obligated to play within the rules.

Remember, the running lane starts 30' from home, so the likelihood is the throw is made prior to the BR getting to the lane.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

RKBUmp if you will please note the comment listed with Rule 8 on page 49...8.2.5 SITUATION B:

COMMENT: All bases must be run legally, even awarded bases.

So a award of a walk ( base on balls) is not a free pass to first base... There is still liability to be put out...

Same in ASA...

A walk is still a live ball situation...

As Steve notes, it is NOT the same in ASA.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by umpirebob71

Why in the world would a catcher throw to first base on ball four with a runner on third?

To prevent the runner going to 2nd.

R1 on 3rd, B2 walks. Less than 2 outs. In the "early leagues" (12U and under?), I don't think it's unusual for the offense to send B2 to 2nd base (don't stop on 1st at all, just round and run. If successful, now you have R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd.

How do you defend? I've seen some teams throw the ball to 1st, make sure the BR stops, then throw to the pitcher. Other teams will have the pitcher try to make a play, others will just let it happen. If the D tries to make any kind of play on the BR, R1 will generally score (unless you've got some great playmakers on D).

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by umpirebob71

Why in the world would a catcher throw to first base on ball four with a runner on third?

Originally Posted by SamG

To prevent the runner going to 2nd.

R1 on 3rd, B2 walks. Less than 2 outs. In the "early leagues" (12U and under?), I don't think it's unusual for the offense to send B2 to 2nd base (don't stop on 1st at all, just round and run. If successful, now you have R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd.

How do you defend? I've seen some teams throw the ball to 1st, make sure the BR stops, then throw to the pitcher. Other teams will have the pitcher try to make a play, others will just let it happen. If the D tries to make any kind of play on the BR, R1 will generally score (unless you've got some great playmakers on D).

throwing to first base might be the dumbest "strategy" to prevent the runner from going to 2nd.... how about throwing the ball back to the pitcher??? that seems to work just fine in baseball.

ive watched maybe 2 womens fastpitch games in my life (both were NCAA D1), but im having a hard time imagining, even in youth leagues, how a runner can get to 2nd on a walk and not be put out. can the girls not throw the ball 85'????

[BretMan]

Yeah, they can throw the ball 85 feet. The problem is- at least for younger kids or lower level ball- is that in the time it takes for the catcher to throw it 85 feet to second base, then put a tag on the runner, then make another 85 foot throw to home, the runner on third will have advanced all the way to the plate and maybe even have scored.

That's really the only time you'll see this play- when there is a runner on third and the offense wants to draw a throw to second to give the run a chance to score. You'll probably never see this play in an NCAA game. I rarely see it in travel ball for anything over 14 year olds. It's a little more frequent in high school ball where the player's skill might be a few notches below travel ball. I have never seen it in a men's fastpitch game.

It's a common enough tactic that coaches have come up with all sorts of defenses against it, like throwing the ball to F3 while inside the bag, throwing to F4 somewhere in the baseline or having F6 come in and cut off the throw in front of second. Depending on the score or game situation, many will just concede second base to prevent the runner on third from advancing, figuring that a runner on first will go ahead and steal second on the next pitch anyway. If a team has a good lead and one out already, they might concede the run and try for the out at second.

Lot's can go wrong when you try to defend this. If you want to get the runner at the plate, it's going to take two quick, accurate throws and some pretty good ball handling. The more you can force the defense to handle the ball, the more chance of something going wrong. Plus, if your fielders aren't all on the same page or haven't practiced for these situations, the chance of something going wrong is even greater.

But I do agree- in fastpitch, where the Look Back Rule comes into play, usually the best defense is to just fire the ball back to the pitcher. That forces the runner on third to commit one way or the other and that will usually get her back on third. It also prevents the runner rounding first from doing any real dancing around and forces her to get back on first or advance to second without delay.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

But I do agree- in fastpitch, where the Look Back Rule comes into play, usually the best defense is to just fire the ball back to the pitcher. That forces the runner on third to commit one way or the other and that will usually get her back on third. It also prevents the runner rounding first from doing any real dancing around and forces her to get back on first or advance to second without delay.

That is the best defense in all situations in all games. NO one defender is closer to all the locations of a possible play than the pitcher. NO one defender is going to have the shortest throw than the pitcher.

And the problem is many coaches all think they can come up with some sort of new play that no one has ever tried before and it just isn't there.

IMO, the only reason the INT on a BR that has been walked arose is because some catcher was dumb enough to hit the BR on the way to 1B where there was no play and the coach, being the all-american that s/he he is, had to find someone to blame for it and sold that bill of goods to some putz.

[RKBUmp]

I have a coach royaly ticked at me from a game last night over the this type of play.

Runner on 3, batter is walked rounds 1st and takes off for 2nd. Ball was thrown right back to the pitcher and no attempt was made on the BR. Runner on 3 is just standing there doing nothing. I killed the play, called the runner out for the LB violation and put the BR back at 1st. Coach is just standing there with his jaw on the ground and all the parents are going nuts. The coach finally came over and asked me to explain the call. I gave him a brief explanation of the look back requirements and he walked away still looking bewildered.

[Snocatzdad]

RKBUmp that is the call that needs to be made more often. I've seen the runner on third retreat, then lead off again all while ball is in the circle and everyone (including umpires) is so fascinated with girl streaking from 1b to 2b that they miss the violation on 3B. My girls have been guilty of this as well and not been called out, but the fact that they should have been called out usually results in a minor heart attack for the 3B coach who will specifically remind them that they LBR is in effect. That's the problem with confusion plays, sometimes you confuse yourself

BTW when I say ball in the circle I mean that no attempt to make a play is being made, so LBR is in effect.