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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 07:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
I have a coach royaly ticked at me from a game last night over the this type of play.

Runner on 3, batter is walked rounds 1st and takes off for 2nd. Ball was thrown right back to the pitcher and no attempt was made on the BR. Runner on 3 is just standing there doing nothing. I killed the play, called the runner out for the LB violation and put the BR back at 1st. Coach is just standing there with his jaw on the ground and all the parents are going nuts. The coach finally came over and asked me to explain the call. I gave him a brief explanation of the look back requirements and he walked away still looking bewildered.
"I killed the play, called the runner out for the LB violation and put the BR back at 1st."

Is this an ASA rule? or some other codes for that matter?

In NSA, the ball is not dead on LBR violation. Runner at third would be out and ball is still live and BR is liable to be put out, but may run to second or return to first subject to LBR for the BR.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 08:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie View Post
In NSA, the ball is not dead on LBR violation.
NSA fast pitch rule 9-1, The ball is dead and not in play:

g. When a baserunner fails to keep in contact with their base until
the pitched ball leaves the pitcher's hand.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 10:33pm
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That's leaving early, not LBR.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 11:25pm
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I know nothing about NSA. If it stays live, it is one of a kind.

But in ASA, NFHS, NCAA, and ISF, a LBR violation is a dead ball.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 04, 2009, 12:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
I know nothing about NSA. If it stays live, it is one of a kind.

But in ASA, NFHS, NCAA, and ISF, a LBR violation is a dead ball.
In YSISF, it's a dead ball and a dead runner.
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Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:10pm.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 04, 2009, 09:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
In YSISF, it's a dead ball and a dead runner.
I thought it was a live grenade and a dead runner. I gotta go back to the rule books!
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 04, 2009, 09:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
I know nothing about NSA. If it stays live, it is one of a kind.

But in ASA, NFHS, NCAA, and ISF, a LBR violation is a dead ball.
Well........... Guess thats a good thing for the NSA. At lease we can get multiple outs for LBR violation on the same play. Apparently, other codes cannot.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 04, 2009, 10:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie View Post
Well........... Guess thats a good thing for the NSA. At lease we can get multiple outs for LBR violation on the same play. Apparently, other codes cannot.
I don't know NSA; have never called an NSA game. With that caveat, the idea that the ball is live after a look back violation in NSA got me interested, so I looked up the rule book and the case book.

The rule book does not state that the ball is dead in the look back rule (8-8-x); it doesn't state that it is live, either. Likewise, the look back rule is not mentioned in the "dead ball" rule (9-1), but neither is it mentioned in the "ball in play" rule (9-2).

HOWEVER, it is mentioned in the Case Book, in the two case plays under the 8.8x cases where an out is recorded, the ruling says the ball is dead. It also says only one out may be recorded on the LBR.
Quote:
8.8x In Fastpitch, Look Back Rule: R1 leaves 3B legally, R2 leaves 2B legally, B1 walks, F2 returns the ball directly to F1 who is in the circle, R1 & R2 stand still off base as F1 watches B1 round 1B.

Ruling: 8.8.x Dead Ball, R1 is out. Once B1 reaches 1B both R1 & R2 must return or advance. However, only one out may be recorded on this play.

8.8x In Fastpitch, Look Back Rule: B1 hits the ball to F4; B1 is safe at 1B; B1 overruns 1B and circles to the right. The ball is returned to F1 in the 16 foot circle. B1 breaks toward 2B.

Ruling: 8.8.x Dead Ball, B1 is out. When B1 turned right, B1 was committed to returning to 1B.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 04, 2009, 01:17pm
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Tom beat me to the punch, and nailed it of course. Robbie, this is only my first year doing NSA, but I find nothing to support keeping the ball live in the rule book or case book. I'll email Terri (if I remember correctly you're also from Indiana) to ask her if I'm wrong, but I believe NSA treats the LBR the same as every other code.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 04, 2009, 08:29pm
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Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob View Post
Tom beat me to the punch, and nailed it of course. Robbie, this is only my first year doing NSA, but I find nothing to support keeping the ball live in the rule book or case book. I'll email Terri (if I remember correctly you're also from Indiana) to ask her if I'm wrong, but I believe NSA treats the LBR the same as every other code.
Thanks for the replies. Here in lies one of the major problems with NSA rules. It is generally accepted (at least in Indiana) that the case book for NSA has no merit. There are definately several "cases" in the book that are devinbately wrong. This, of course, may or may not be one of them.

There are several "mistakes, typos, contradictions, etc" in the NSA book that I keep thinking I will write a major report to be presented to the annual meeting - But I never seem to be able to make time to do so.

I stopped refering to the case book for the reason stated above. In general I take the rules for face value, and in this case as stated - there is no rule to kill the play.

If I were in a game and called 2 outs on LBR and had a protest, I'm confident the rulling on the field would hold up. The UIC would have a rule book, and I would show that there is no provision to kill the play.

For what its worth (not much) - I worked a game last year with a Team Indiana staff member, and we had a situation where we did call the first LBR violation out and both rulled that the second runner "returned" quickly enough after her legal stop to avoid violation.

Having said all that - Not sure what Indiana would say the "intent" of the rule is. They certainly may say its dead.

PS:

Bob, Do I know you? Are you in Indiana? I know Terri well, and will inquire as well.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 04, 2009, 10:06pm
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Does NSA kill the ball when a runner leaves the base prior to the release of a pitch?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 05, 2009, 01:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Does NSA kill the ball when a runner leaves the base prior to the release of a pitch?
Yes - Dead ball, runner out.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 05, 2009, 01:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie View Post
Yes - Dead ball, runner out.
Actually, the correct mechanic is: No pitch. Runner out.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 05, 2009, 08:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie View Post
Bob, Do I know you? Are you in Indiana? I know Terri well, and will inquire as well.
I don't think we've met, but I could be wrong. Yes, I live in South Whitley, which is in the Fort Wayne area. This is my first year doing NSA, and I didn't sign up until July. I've worked a few tournaments in Warsaw, but nowhere else. I don't remember having a partner named Robbie, but we very well could have been sitting next to each other in the umpires' room at some point if you also have worked in Warsaw. I'm hoping to work some more tournaments at the Dome in Fort Wayne during the winter.

I did email Terri, but have not had a response yet. It typically takes her a couple of days to respond, but once she does I'll share what she says, unless you hear from her first. FWIW, I have not had a LBR violation in any NSA games I've done so far, so it would be good to know I'm not supposed to kill the ball if that's the case, since I know that's what I would have done.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 05, 2009, 08:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie View Post
Actually, the correct mechanic is: No pitch. Runner out.
Okay, now if you think about it, this and the LBR are based upon the same theory that the runner is not in contact with the base when required.

Is it the same rule? No, because the LBR is more tolerable and allows the runner to continue until s/he stops and then dictates immediate move to come in contact with the base. The leaving early is just the LBR with the runner already stopped and in place prior to the violation.

The cause is a little different, but I would think the effect should probably be the same.
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