How to "call" a ball not caught?

[Shmuelg]

I had this problem last night:

One out, R1 and R2. Rec ball, but the guys kind of take it seriously.

Batter hits a line drive to the shortstop. The ball hits the ground briefly (for a millisecond), and then goes into the SS's glove. No question in my mind, but it was a question in the mind of many of the fielders and runners.

I didn't call anything, didn't say the batter is out, didn't say "hey guys, run", or anything like that. Just kind of looked at the SS, and waited for things to happen.

They did. After a couple of moments, the SS figured out what was going on, and tagged R2, who had come off of the base, but was confused as to whether to run or not. SS then took two steps to second base, stepped on it, and I called R1 out. He had not run (he was confused, too).

I felt sorry for all of the confusion, and it would have been nice to make some sort of call that made everything clear right away, but I don't know what I should have done? Point to the ground? Call "fair ball" (OK, that was a joke, I'm not really asking that), or something else?

[MNBlue]

I've made it a practice to signal 'safe' in situations like the one you describe.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I've made it a practice to signal 'safe' in situations like the one you describe.

And the converse to that is to make a loud and clear "OUT!" call when the ball IS caught on shot that was close to hitting the ground.

[AtlUmpSteve]

"Safe (no catch)" signal, repeat with emphasis; okay (by some) to verbalize "NO CATCH" (but be loud and particularly clear about the "NO!!!"). Maybe even better, just the word "NO!!!" while signaling, so no one can claim they only heard the "catch" part of "no catch". Still better to give them some indication, even if imperfect, than none at all.

Any way you do it, some one will say you didn't tell them soon enough, whatever. At that point, it is their problem, not yours.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by Shmuelg

I had this problem last night:

One out, R1 and R2. Rec ball, but the guys kind of take it seriously.

Batter hits a line drive to the shortstop. The ball hits the ground briefly (for a millisecond), and then goes into the SS's glove. No question in my mind, but it was a question in the mind of many of the fielders and runners.

I didn't call anything, didn't say the batter is out, didn't say "hey guys, run", or anything like that. Just kind of looked at the SS, and waited for things to happen.

They did. After a couple of moments, the SS figured out what was going on, and tagged R2, who had come off of the base, but was confused as to whether to run or not. SS then took two steps to second base, stepped on it, and I called R1 out. He had not run (he was confused, too).

I felt sorry for all of the confusion, and it would have been nice to make some sort of call that made everything clear right away, but I don't know what I should have done? Point to the ground? Call "fair ball" (OK, that was a joke, I'm not really asking that), or something else?

I had a similar sit happen to me while i was playing baseball, in LF, slide feet first to snag a shallow pop up, I definitely caught the ball, everyone in the stands, the batter, and R1 knew I caught the ball, the ump didnt say anything, that should have been the 3rd out, as Im running in, I see a lot of players on both teams just standing around, so i flipped the ball to 2nd, and the ump called a force out.

As a player, it would have been nice to know that the ump didnt think it was a catch so I wouldnt have been screwed if the runner and BR actually ran. thus, when I ump, I always yell no catch on a close play to "aid" the fielders and runners. I dont know if its proper by the rule book/mechanics, but I feel its the right thing to do. (especially since I only do SP)

[Shmuelg]

Sounds like good ideas. Thanks, guys.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

I had a similar sit happen to me while i was playing baseball, in LF, slide feet first to snag a shallow pop up, I definitely caught the ball, everyone in the stands, the batter, and R1 knew I caught the ball, the ump didnt say anything, that should have been the 3rd out, as Im running in, I see a lot of players on both teams just standing around, so i flipped the ball to 2nd, and the ump called a force out.

As a player, it would have been nice to know that the ump didnt think it was a catch so I wouldnt have been screwed if the runner and BR actually ran. thus, when I ump, I always yell no catch on a close play to "aid" the fielders and runners. I dont know if its proper by the rule book/mechanics, but I feel its the right thing to do. (especially since I only do SP)

I used to call "no catch," but I now feel that it could be confused for "catch!" I now give a solid "safe" signal with no verbal.

If it's close, the players should be listening for the "out" call anyway. If they don't hear it, then that should be a big clue.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I used to call "no catch," but I now feel that it could be confused for "catch!" I now give a solid "safe" signal with no verbal.

If it's close, the players should be listening for the "out" call anyway. If they don't hear it, then that should be a big clue.

I agree. As a player, and the reason we do not call "fair", I was taught that you play until you hear the umpire. We all do not talk with the same dialect, inflections, drawl, accent, etc.

Remember a game in Richmond one year with runners at 1st & 2nd and a shot down the LF line. Umpire screams, "GOOD BALL" and everyone, offense and defense, stops dead in their tracks. This umpire couldn't understand why no one was running.

[Dutch Alex]

The sound of "Fair Ball" is kinda simmelair to "Foul Ball".
A "not caught fair hitted ball" is also not an action by a fielder, so a "Safe call" is unpropiat.
All we have to do is just point to fair territory with the right index-finger. THAT is the propper way to give a signal for fair hitted ball!

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alex

The sound of "Fair Ball" is kinda simmelair to "Foul Ball".
A "not caught fair hitted ball" is also not an action by a fielder, so a "Safe call" is unpropiat.
All we have to do is just point to fair territory with the right index-finger. THAT is the propper way to give a signal for fair hitted ball!

I would disagree. The OP said the ball short-hopped the SS as he was making a play. As umpires, we are in the communication business. We must communicate what's occurred. In this situation, it's a "no catch." Everyone is best served by a "safe" signal.

In NCAA, we're taught to give a "safe" signal on a potential INT/OB call that we rule is neither. It's an umpire's way of communicating what has occurred and what your ruling is.

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

... As umpires, we are in the communication business. We must communicate what's occurred. {snap}

... It's an umpire's way of communicating what has occurred and what your ruling is.

I agree that we must communcate what our ruling is. Pointing is the way to communicate that we indeed have a fair hitted ball.

There's no play on a runner, so a "SAFE" call is not to be given.
There is no difference in calling "a close no-catch" or "a fair hiited ball, down the line". So pointing fair, must be the propper way.

Maybe, just maybe, one can add a hand-signal to it, indicating a hop on the ground.

IMHO a SAFE-call, is not wanted. A verbal given call is asking for trouble!

[NCASAUmp]

Sander, are these the mechanics that were given to you by your organization in Europe? They're different from what we're instructed to do here in the US.

They're not wrong, they're just different.

And don't forget, guys, that pointing to the ground was the ASA signal for a trapped ball up until a couple years ago.

[Umpteenth]

I worked with a partner (PU) last night who wanted me (BU) to be able to completely focus on the baserunners. On any fly ball, he called either, "Catch!" or "On the ground!".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

I would disagree. The OP said the ball short-hopped the SS as he was making a play. As umpires, we are in the communication business. We must communicate what's occurred. In this situation, it's a "no catch." Everyone is best served by a "safe" signal.

True, but I don't believe the signal is the issue. When a ball is put into play, the defense has people screaming for the ball here or there and the offense is screaming for the BR/Rs to run here or there. In many cases, very few are going to realize a complete verbal call. The offense has designated coaches to direct the runners (many of whom haven't the slightest idea how to coach) and defenders are not lacking in help from teammates. Step up and give a safe signal.

In NCAA, we're taught to give a "safe" signal on a potential INT/OB call that we rule is neither. It's an umpire's way of communicating what has occurred and what your ruling is.

IMO, over-officiating redundancy. Don't know what sect of the game initiated the mechanic, but I have a good idea

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

IMO, over-officiating redundancy. Don't know what sect of the game initiated the mechanic, but I have a good idea

Mike, I think that it is a good signal, as we communicate what we saw, even if everyone else saw it. And, for the record, we are communicating "no infraction", not "safe."

Would you consider pointing "fair" as over-officiating and redundant?