How to "call" a ball not caught?

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Sander, are these the mechanics that were given to you by your organization in Europe? They're different from what we're instructed to do here in the US.

They're not wrong, they're just different.

And don't forget, guys, that pointing to the ground was the ASA signal for a trapped ball up until a couple years ago.

Dave, we follow ESF. That's the Europe Softball Federation. They use the rule set from the ISF. ISF is following the ASA rule set only a few years later... So it might be that in a couple a years we as well are yelling "SAFE" on a trapped ball. (I guess not) Shmuelg is using ESF as well in Israel.

I think the mechanic yelling "SAFE / No catch" is wrong, not only different.
Signaling "SAFE" looks to much on a baseball-machanic, IMO, so there's onter reason why I'm not willing to use that machanic. I'm a softball-ump. not a small-baller.

Background info on the latter:
ISF wants national federations (the most located in Europe) with a baseball and softball-devision to separate. I agree with that, although that's gonna cost a lot. Here in the Neth.'s softball brings in the most Euro's for our national federation; but the most money is spent by our baseball-devision... So ,for me, separate them!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Mike, I think that it is a good signal, as we communicate what we saw, even if everyone else saw it. And, for the record, we are communicating "no infraction", not "safe."

Now think about it, Class. If you see INT, what do you do? ? ? Anyone? That's right, we hold up both arms with the palms facing forward and kill the play.

Okay, let's move onto the next situation. If you observe OBS, what do you do? Bueller, are you here for this one? Hello? Anyone else? That's correct, we extend our left arm to indicate a DDB. Can you repeat after me? Delayed-Dead-Ball. Very good, Class.

Now, let's step this up a notch. If there is some sort of interaction between an offensive player and a defensive player and you, as the umpire, determine there is no infraction, what do you need to do? C'mon, I know this is a hard one, but I know you all know the answer to this one. Anyone? Hmmmm......Okay, Class, let's look at it this way. If you are a player or coach or a spectator and you observe some level of interaction on the field between a runner and a fielder and the umpire makes no signal or call of any type, what do you have? Lil' Johnny, can you answer this without using that potty mouth of yours? Yes, Johnny, what do you have? What was that? That's correct, during that play there was...


NOTHING!
NO INFRACTION!


I'm sorry, Johnny, what was that last thing you said? Oh, my dear! Yes, Johnny, that's right, "not a ****ing thing" is, also, correct. Thank you.

Would you consider pointing "fair" as over-officiating and redundant?

Of course, not since it is an valid call. Something happened in which the players require a declaration as to whether continue or not.

And, BTW, Master Slick, it has not escaped many of us that your initials are BS, so watch your step or you will be back in the corner with that foul-mouthed, little ****, Johnny!

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

IMO, over-officiating redundancy. Don't know what sect of the game initiated the mechanic, but I have a good idea

Mike, I'm of the opinion that this is a good signal. Very much like the "play on" verbal in a different game. It lets those who need to know that you've seen "it" and you've got a nothing.

[AtlUmpSteve]

As I understand it, the purpose of the "safe" signal when seeing a play where they think you should be calling something is to acknowledge that 1) yes, I saw it, too, 2) I have made a judgment, it is a "no call", and 3) coming out to argue with me is challenging judgment, so you better come out asking about the rule, or else suggesting a different angle might have additional information to add.

To me, the biggest positive is that it stops the "he wasn't looking" griping; you can disagree with my judgment, but you know I saw it, and ruled on it. Personally, I think it is a good thing, when used appropriately (and not over-used).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

As I understand it, the purpose of the "safe" signal when seeing a play where they think you should be calling something is to acknowledge that 1) yes, I saw it, too, 2) I have made a judgment, it is a "no call", and 3) coming out to argue with me is challenging judgment, so you better come out asking about the rule, or else suggesting a different angle might have additional information to add.

To me, the biggest positive is that it stops the "he wasn't looking" griping; you can disagree with my judgment, but you know I saw it, and ruled on it. Personally, I think it is a good thing, when used appropriately (and not over-used).

Well, we will just disagree. Not only do I believe it is redundant since the lack of a signal means you did not believe it was a violation or you did not see it, which in every case of which I am aware, excludes the umpire from ruling otherwise.

On top of that, I believe it is an inappropriate signal as nothing occurred to suggest a player could be safe or out since if it did, there would have been another signal and/or call.

And while we are at it, this mechanic precludes absolutely no argument. It will be no different than any other play with or without a signal. It may actually be more inviting more trouble than what it is worth. It may be looked at as just another level of debate upon which a coach can hang their hat. "Blue, I knew you saw it! Obviously there was something there which made you think there could have been an infraction, but you decided not to call it."

And doesn't this pretty much fly in the face of the "no ball, no call" philosophy?

[luvthegame]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Well, we will just disagree. Not only do I believe it is redundant since the lack of a signal means you did not believe it was a violation or you did not see it, which in every case of which I am aware, excludes the umpire from ruling otherwise.

On top of that, I believe it is an inappropriate signal as nothing occurred to suggest a player could be safe or out since if it did, there would have been another signal and/or call.

And while we are at it, this mechanic precludes absolutely no argument. It will be no different than any other play with or without a signal. It may actually be more inviting more trouble than what it is worth. It may be looked at as just another level of debate upon which a coach can hang their hat. "Blue, I knew you saw it! Obviously there was something there which made you think there could have been an infraction, but you decided not to call it."

And doesn't this pretty much fly in the face of the "no ball, no call" philosophy?

No ball no call does not require a judgement to communicate...it is obvious.

This NCAA mechanic was discussed and implemented by a lot of great and experienced umpire minds.

It has been used at this level by alot of excellent umpires to acknowledge that the play was noticed and a judgement has been rendered.....

Alot of great umpires have used this mechanic and found it to be quite effective...and incorporated into their mechanics repertoire.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by luvthegame

No ball no call does not require a judgement to communicate...it is obvious.

This NCAA mechanic was discussed and implemented by a lot of great and experienced umpire minds.

It has been used at this level by alot of excellent umpires to acknowledge that the play was noticed and a judgement has been rendered.....

Alot of great umpires have used this mechanic and found it to be quite effective...and incorporated into their mechanics repertoire.

First, I agree that it's a good signal to use - properly. And I understand that Mike is dealing is dealing with all all levels of ball and all levels of skill. AND - you may well owe be a beer r 2 for this, but - Mike would & has done well at just about any level he happened to be working.
Luvvy - you're indicating in your post that you agree with the mechanic for the college level - great, it's an expectation and pretty much a requirement that. Mike ain't agreeing with it for the various levels he's got.
There's not a problem there.
I suspect that if/when someone uses the mechanic in a game he's working, he'll know what just happened. Just as much, I suspect that in a game with Mike, if he doesn't make an interference/obstruction/no tag call in his area, I'll know he was where he should have been and saw what he should have seen.
I haven't worked a game with Mike, but we've hoisted a few and I've worked with at least 1 of his deputies - and that she's one of the best I've had the pleasure to work with - even if she does wear a non-black face mask.

[luvthegame]

Originally Posted by Steve M

First, I agree that it's a good signal to use - properly. And I understand that Mike is dealing is dealing with all all levels of ball and all levels of skill. AND - you may well owe be a beer r 2 for this, but - Mike would & has done well at just about any level he happened to be working.
Luvvy - you're indicating in your post that you agree with the mechanic for the college level - great, it's an expectation and pretty much a requirement that. Mike ain't agreeing with it for the various levels he's got.
There's not a problem there.
I suspect that if/when someone uses the mechanic in a game he's working, he'll know what just happened. Just as much, I suspect that in a game with Mike, if he doesn't make an interference/obstruction/no tag call in his area, I'll know he was where he should have been and saw what he should have seen.
I haven't worked a game with Mike, but we've hoisted a few and I've worked with at least 1 of his deputies - and that she's one of the best I've had the pleasure to work with - even if she does wear a non-black face mask.

What??



I did get the last part...and I would suspect DC uses this mechanic when appropriate.

I am just saying....there IS a reason, place and time...thats all!!

[ronald]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

2) I have made a judgment, it is a "no call", and 3) coming out to argue with me is challenging judgment, so you better come out asking about the rule, or else suggesting a different angle might have additional information to add.

Does that stop the coaches from coming out and questioning your judgment? Are college coaches allowed to come out and question and discuss the play?

What we really need is some empirical evidence as to the effectiveness of a safe signal in eliminating discussions between the coach and ump.

Obviously it is accepted and used at the college level but at that level you should see the play, be expected to see the play and all participants should expect a priori that blue is looking at that play. Thus, a no int/obs call indicates his/her judgment.

I'm left with it's a college thing. Just how they do it.



Maybe the distance will make them think about it but I am not sure it will stop them.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by luvthegame

This NCAA mechanic was discussed and implemented by a lot of great and experienced umpire minds.

Appeal to experts. Ok. Why have not the great and experienced umpire minds in baseball or ASA implemented it?

Originally Posted by luvthegame

It has been used at this level by alot of excellent umpires to acknowledge that the play was noticed and a judgement has been rendered.....

I can agree with that but the use of the safe signal is not something most fans can see and comprehend its meaning (I speculate that). Heck the fans may not even see it as it is done in super quick fashion. I wonder how many fans see the play and then immediately look at the ump to see if he made the safe call. For that matter, how many coaches look at the ump on this play?

Originally Posted by luvthegame

Alot of great umpires have used this mechanic and found it to be quite effective...and incorporated into their mechanics repertoire.

What is the basis for stating that is effective? Can we say that of 100 calls using this mechanic, only 2 coaches discussed versus of a 100 calls where not used, 72 coaches decided to discuss the play.

I assert that on almost any contact between a runner and f6 where a safe signal is given that one of the coaches is going to come out and ask the ump something. I can even imagine if it is with only a runner on 2nd base, the coach asking U3 to get U1's input.

So for you college guys, what is your experience when using the safe signal? What percentage of the time has it stopped a discussion?

[Steve M]

"Appeal to experts. Ok. Why have not the great and experienced umpire minds in baseball or ASA implemented it?"

You're asking the wrong group of folks here. Ask the great minds.

"I can agree with that but the use of the safe signal is not something most fans can see and comprehend its meaning (I speculate that). Heck the fans may not even see it as it is done in super quick fashion. I wonder how many fans see the play and then immediately look at the ump to see if he made the safe call. For that matter, how many coaches look at the ump on this play?"

Don't know or care what the fans understand & think. As for the coaches, with the umpire in the right position, most will see the signal.

"I assert that on almost any contact between a runner and f6 where a safe signal is given that one of the coaches is going to come out and ask the ump something. I can even imagine if it is with only a runner on 2nd base, the coach asking U3 to get U1's input."

Coach, I was in the proper position and saw the play. What piece of information on this play did you see that I did not see?


"So for you college guys, what is your experience when using the safe signal? What percentage of the time has it stopped a discussion?"

When using this signal, I have not had a single coach come to discuss that specific play - I believe that they understand it is arguing judgement.

[ronald]

thanks steve.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by ronald

Appeal to experts. Ok. Why have not the great and experienced umpire minds in baseball or ASA implemented it?

I know some guys get riled up when you mention the "B" word on the softball board, but...

This mechanic is accepted and taught at the pro baseball schools. So, those great minds have implemented it!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Ronald

"So for you college guys, what is your experience when using the safe signal? What percentage of the time has it stopped a discussion?"

Actually, there is no valid answer to Ronald's question since you do not know if the coach would have come out to discuss a non-call if you did not offer the safe sign.

Originally Posted by luvthegame

No ball no call does not require a judgement to communicate...it is obvious.

Yes, just as is a DDB or Deadball signal, or lack of one.

I am not a fan of extraneous signals by umpires. Have I given an unnecessary signal? Sure, but usually beat myself up when I do it.

Just because you have a group of softball gods come up with something new doesn't mean everyone has to like it, accept it and sit back with a smile and pretend everything is peachy keen.

[luvthegame]

Originally Posted by BretMan

I know some guys get riled up when you mention the "B" word on the softball board, but...

This mechanic is accepted and taught at the pro baseball schools. So, those great minds have implemented it!

Tru dat!!

And I have seen it used by umpires in many Major League games.