Interference and force out

[NCASAUmp]

Sitch: R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, 2 outs. B4 hits a dribbler that touches the top of 1B. R2, thinking it's a foul ball, trots back to the ball, picks it up and tosses it to F3. The ball did not pass any infielder, nor was it touched by any infielder. R2 was not in contact with 1B when he picked up the ball. R1 had crossed the plate before R2 touched the ball.

There's no doubt that R2 is out. The question is: is this considered a force out? My instinct tells me, "no sh1t, Dave, do you even need to ask? Of course it is!" Yet something is nagging me in the back of my mind on this one.

[DeputyUICHousto]

You changed it up...seems a little bit different than the previous one I read. lol

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

You changed it up...seems a little bit different than the previous one I read. lol

Most details are the same. Just eliminating some questionables.

[cloverdale]

ill take a stab at this...with all due respect to the poster...this has to do with the run counting???...I have interference run counts...but Im interested to see if this qualifies as a force out...

[CecilOne]

R2 was out before reaching the base he was forced to attain.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

R2 was out before reaching the base he was forced to attain.

Well, let's break this down...

ASA 5-5-B: No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner.

Okay... So force out?

ASA 1: Force Out: An out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the base that the runner is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner, and before the batter-runner or a trailing runner has been put out.

He was forced to leave the base, but an out from an act of INT can happen at any time, not just when they're forced.

Anything in the RS?

ASA RS #21: A force out can be made by tagging a runner who is forced to advance to a base as the result of the batter becoming a batter-runner, or by touching the base to which they are being forced.

Still no mention of INT.

Again, common sense tells me that this would be a force out, because they were put out prior to reaching the base they were forced to advance. However, the way in which they were put out has little to nothing to do at all with being forced to advance.

Crap, am I looking at this too much from a coach's perspective?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

R2 was out before reaching the base he was forced to attain.

I'm going to second this opinion, and here's why. R2 was forced to vacate 1B and advance to 2B due to B4 becoming a BR. The BR was not called out in this play, so the force is still on. Once R2 touches the ball, that's it, the ball is dead. R2 has now hindered the defense by making contact with a batted ball that has not been touched, nor has it passed any infielder other than the pitcher. R2 should not be allowed to use interference as a advantageous way of taking away a force out. If the runner was put out prior to reaching the base to which they were forced to advance, I'm calling it a force out.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Sitch: R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, 2 outs. B4 hits a dribbler that touches the top of 1B. R2, thinking it's a foul ball, trots back to the ball, picks it up and tosses it to F3. The ball did not pass any infielder, nor was it touched by any infielder. R2 was not in contact with 1B when he picked up the ball. R1 had crossed the plate before R2 touched the ball.

There's no doubt that R2 is out. The question is: is this considered a force out? My instinct tells me, "no sh1t, Dave, do you even need to ask? Of course it is!" Yet something is nagging me in the back of my mind on this one.

Couldn't you get an out for passing a runner? Wouldn't the runner going to 2nd have to go behind the batter/runner to touch the fair batted ball which is now in fair territory? Just a thought.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Couldn't you get an out for passing a runner? Wouldn't the runner going to 2nd have to go behind the batter/runner to touch the fair batted ball which is now in fair territory? Just a thought.

Where did it mention one passing the other? I would have to assume IF the BR advanced, it would have been straight through the base.

8.7.D & RS 39 clearly state that the runners must physically pass each other. The RS goes to the extent of mentioning arms and legs. I would have to think that you cannot just presume a passing based upon relative position to a base.

[Dakota]

In the past in dealing with situations of controversy, ASA has tended to go with the letter of the rule. This is, if I was placing a bet, I'd bet that if ASA issued an official ruling on this, they would apply the interference rule. IMO, that would be a wrong interpretation, but it would narrowly follow the letter of the rule.

Until that eventuality, however, on the field, I would rule the OP (and my variations) to be force outs.

[cloverdale]

thanks to all for posting such great views on the thread...making me think about all the different senarios that can happen here...any more ideas on MTD's thought about possible 4th out

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

In the past in dealing with situations of controversy, ASA has tended to go with the letter of the rule. This is, if I was placing a bet, I'd bet that if ASA issued an official ruling on this, they would apply the interference rule. IMO, that would be a wrong interpretation, but it would narrowly follow the letter of the rule.

Until that eventuality, however, on the field, I would rule the OP (and my variations) to be force outs.

1.FORCE OUT: An out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the base the runner is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner, and before the batter-funner or a trailing runner has been put out.

5.5.B No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base of any other runner "forced out" due to the batter becoming a batter-runner.

Please note it says if the runner is forced out. The runner is NOT being ruled out due to being forced, but because of an INT call which would have been made whether it was a forced runner or not.

I don't think there is anything "narrow" about it.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...The runner is NOT being ruled out due to being forced, but because of an INT call which would have been made whether it was a forced runner or not.

I don't think there is anything "narrow" about it.

Same can be said in many cases with a tag. Take the OP situation, but instead of the runner picking up the ball, the fielder does and tags the runner. The runner is out because he thought the ball was foul and was meandering back to base. He would have been out whether or not he was forced because he was off the base when tagged. Exempting a runner from the force out due to an infraction by the runner while off the base due to being forced off the base is a narrow (and wrong for the game) interpretation. JMO, of course.