Force Out

[rickbeauv]

HI all looking for some back up on this which i am pretty sure of the answer myself but looking for the exact clarification. We had a situation the other night in which there was a runner on first and no outs. The batter proceeds to hit a groundball to the firstbaseman he catches it the runner runs back to firstbase and stands there. I instruct my 1st baseman to tag the runner first before tagging the base. He does but the umpire somehow calls him safe and the batter out. In my 30 plus years of baseball and softball always thought the runner was forced to run which should resulted in a double play. I argued the point for a few minutes then let it go so i ask please will a real umpire make the right call for me? By the way this was in an NSA adult leauge softball game (not that it matters).

[Rick Vietti]

As described - Double Play. The base is not an island and the runner on first is forced to advance because of the batter runner.

The runner that must advance can be tagged or the bag to which he/she is going to can be tagged.

[AlabamaBlue]

http://www.officialforum.com/thread/8844

[Dakota]

Yeah, we've discussed this before - thanks for the thread link, AB.

Rick, your umpire's call was incorrect unless he saw your F3 touch the bag first - maybe not intentionally, but maybe he did.

[rickbeauv]

For all of you who replied thanks, I am glad that more people think the way i do. It just helped me to think i've missed something all theses years. Now another question to any umpires out there, Is the black on the plate part of the plate or not? some umps call it a strike if the ball hits the black others call it a ball, which is it?

[WillyS]

First of all.
If the plate is installed correctly, you should not see the black.
But, if you do, think of it this way. If you were to remove the plate from the field, does the black stay behind?
NO, part of the plate.
Secondly, the laws of physics dictate, taking into account trajectory and flight of the ball, you cannot hit the black without catching some white.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by rickbeauv
For all of you who replied thanks, I am glad that more people think the way i do. It just helped me to think i've missed something all theses years. Now another question to any umpires out there, Is the black on the plate part of the plate or not? some umps call it a strike if the ball hits the black others call it a ball, which is it?

Speaking ASA

The black part of the plate is considered part of the plate for all purposes whether calling the pitch or touching the plate by the runner or defender.

If you have an ASA umpire tell you different, have them ask their UIC to check page 15 of the 2003 ASA Umpire Clinic Guide.

[greymule]

Yes, the black is considered the plate, but

Secondly, the laws of physics dictate, taking into account trajectory and flight of the ball, you cannot hit the black without catching some white.

This statement is patently false.

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by greymule
Yes, the black is considered the plate, but

Secondly, the laws of physics dictate, taking into account trajectory and flight of the ball, you cannot hit the black without catching some white.

This statement is patently false.

The black part kind of slopes down and you could hit black and dirt without hitting white. JMH observation.

[CecilOne]

I have always thought the black/white arguments were useless. The plate is defined by its dimensions (17", 8 1/2", 12", 12", 8 1/2") and not by color. Whatever piece of material you see on the ground at the base of the foul lines is the plate. As long as it meets the dimensions, it is all home plate. If it doesn't meet the dimensions, get it fixed/replaced or make a ground rule that it will serve as home plate for that game.

[greymule]

I believe that on plates that contain black, the white is 17 inches wide. The black is simply a slope to keep runners from getting their spikes caught on a vertical edge. I have seen 17-inch (white) plates with a black slope that is as much as an inch and a half, even 2 inches, wide all the way around. (That would be a lot for a baseball pitcher.) Regardless, ASA does instruct its umps to consider the black to be part of the plate.

Maybe the statement about a ball that hits black has to hit white referred only to balls hitting the ground. That makes more sense, as it would be tough for a ball to hit only the slope without hitting the top.

Let's face it, on pitches, most umpires give the black and then some. I certainly do.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne
I have always thought the black/white arguments were useless. The plate is defined by its dimensions (17", 8 1/2", 12", 12", 8 1/2") and not by color. Whatever piece of material you see on the ground at the base of the foul lines is the plate. As long as it meets the dimensions, it is all home plate. If it doesn't meet the dimensions, get it fixed/replaced or make a ground rule that it will serve as home plate for that game.

No problem.

Please contact every company which produces a home base. Insure that all are made of the same material and identical dimensions and color.

Then contact every management organization responsible for any and all softball fields in the world, public or private, FORCE them to buy and install the exact piece of equipment for every ball field for which they are responsible in the exact same manner.

When task is complete, arrange a meeting of all bodies which sanction ANY type of softball game in the world and have them agree, on paper, that they will all equally adopt this plate, the manner in which it is installed and agree to incorporate identical rules and interpretations from that day forward without waiver.

When you get that done, call us back and we'll see what we can do

[CecilOne]

Mike, please lighten up. All I am saying is that the color doesn't matter. Whatever non-dirt material in a 5 sided slab you see is home plate. The width or angle or existence of the "black" doesn't matter, it's part of the plate. I quoted the dimensions to emphasize that the definition does not include color, beveling, etc.

I think what I said agrees with "The black part of the plate is considered part of the plate for all purposes whether calling the pitch or touching the plate by the runner or defender."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne
Mike, please lighten up. All I am saying is that the color doesn't matter. Whatever non-dirt material in a 5 sided slab you see is home plate. The width or angle or existence of the "black" doesn't matter, it's part of the plate. I quoted the dimensions to emphasize that the definition does not include color, beveling, etc.

I think what I said agrees with "The black part of the plate is considered part of the plate for all purposes whether calling the pitch or touching the plate by the runner or defender."

No, I will not lighten up as this issue is a serious matter that makes the umpires who know how to call it look bad by those who don't due to lack of clinical diligence or opinion.

As long as it meets the dimensions, it is all home plate. If it doesn't meet the dimensions, get it fixed/replaced or make a ground rule that it will serve as home plate for that game

This is the part of you post that got me. It's quite obvious that most manufactured plates do not include the beveled parts of their product within the dimensions you cited, though there are some odd ones out there that do.

So, I'm sort of curious just how you get it fixed or replaced? And just what type of ground rule would you enforce? ASA umpires are specifically instructed to rule in a certain matter in this case which would preclude someone's idea of a special ground rule.

The inconsistency in production and installation is the exact reason why ASA approaches this with an interpretation as opposed to a rule which would have to be so vague it would be useless.

[CecilOne]

OK, I get those (both comments).

"Fixed or replaced" was something I hoped all would get as too extreme, as was the "ground rule" by which I meant call the entirety of whatever plate is there. Sorry that I got to you that way, trying too hard to put down the black/white issue.