Do Not Pitch - Dead or Live?

[Paul L]

What is the status of the ball when the PU holds up the Do Not Pitch signal? Same for both ASA and Fed? Citation to rule or other authority?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Paul L

What is the status of the ball when the PU holds up the Do Not Pitch signal? Same for both ASA and Fed? Citation to rule or other authority?

I do not have my rules books in front of me but it means the ball is dead and therefore if F1 goes ahead and pitches the ball, she is going to have one upset PU.

MTD, Sr.

[gumpire]

Originally Posted by Paul L

What is the status of the ball when the PU holds up the Do Not Pitch signal? Same for both ASA and Fed? Citation to rule or other authority?

ASA = "NO PITCH"

Rule 10.6.10 (FP/MP) & 10.6.9 (SP & 16")

I believe that "Do Not Pitch" is a suspension of play no different from "TIME OUT"; therefore "DEAD BALL" until "PLAY BALL" is declarded.

[robbie]

Therefore if a runner steps off base during this time, he/she is not out??
FP, of course.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by robbie

Therefore if a runner steps off base during this time, he/she is not out??
FP, of course.

Oh, boy!

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by robbie

Therefore if a runner steps off base during this time, he/she is not out??
FP, of course.

Great response, Robbie; bet that made the others think again.

"Do not pitch" means only that; the ball is live, all other rules and violations remain in effect. You are also suspending your ability to call a 20 second violation when you hold the pitcher up. If a runner steps off, she is out.

If the pitcher violates your "Do not pitch", THEN you kill the play, and direct the pitcher to NOT quickpitch again. "Time" or "Dead Ball" mean play is suspended; "Do not Pitch" is not one of those.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Well, maybe.

Speaking ASA

If the umpire is offering a DNP signal because the batter is not in the box, 10.4.C notes that this is a suspension of play and the definition of "TIME" is a term for a suspension of play. So, could such a signal by the umpire be taken as a suspension of play? Yeah, it is a stretch, but I've seen folks take longer trips to sell a point.

All that aside, I agree with Steve's analogy of the situation and how it should be handled.

[gumpire]

We all obviously live and ump in different worlds!!!

Originally Posted by robbie

Therefore if a runner steps off base during this time, he/she is not out??
FP, of course.

One of the many reason I might signal "Do Not Pitch" is because I am waiting for a baserunner who was legally off the base (i.e., foul-ball) to return to their base.....therefore; NO, NOT OUT!!!

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Great response, Robbie; bet that made the others think again.

"Do not pitch" means only that; the ball is live, all other rules and violations remain in effect. You are also suspending your ability to call a 20 second violation when you hold the pitcher up. If a runner steps off, she is out.

If the pitcher violates your "Do not pitch", THEN you kill the play, and direct the pitcher to NOT quickpitch again. "Time" or "Dead Ball" mean play is suspended; "Do not Pitch" is not one of those.

What rule is this? What CAN happen during this live ball "Do Not Pitch"? (other than an appeal)

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by gumpire

We all obviously live and ump in different worlds!!!



One of the many reason I might signal "Do Not Pitch" is because I am waiting for a baserunner who was legally off the base (i.e., foul-ball) to return to their base.....therefore; NO, NOT OUT!!!

Sorry, that isn't a "Do not Pitch"; that is "I haven't made the ball live after a foul ball, yet".

What rule is this? What CAN happen during this live ball "Do Not Pitch"? (other than an appeal)

You could have a live ball appeal (since the ball is live); but not a dead ball appeal (because the ball isn't dead). Otherwise, name EVERYTHING that could happen when the ball is live, and you DON'T have the "Do not Pitch" up, and all of those (except a legal pitch and a 20 second violation by the pitcher) can happen.

Without considering this list complete, I would say 1) illegal pitch by pitcher, 2) quickpitch (no pitch) by pitcher), 3) request for "time" by either team (which may or may not be granted), 4) runner could illegally leave base prior to pitch, 5) batter can violate the 10 second rule by failing to enter the batter's box when directed, 6) offensive coach might leave the coaching box and effect an offensive conference, 7) live ball appeal (already noted), 8) pitcher might leave the circle, allowing baserunners to advance.

Anyone else adding anything that can happen during a live ball with the ball in the circle in pitcher's possession??

[gumpire]

I don't understand how or where in the rules you keep coming back to "LIVE BALL"?

Maybe answering this question will help me sort it out.....how do you indicate to the pitcher that it is now ok to pitch? If you declare "PLAY" or "PLAY BALL" is that not an indication that the ball was "dead" and you're now making it "live"?

Rule 6 Section 10 (& Section 9 for SP) clearly state that:
"No pitch shall be declared when:
A. The pitcher pitches during the suspension of play.
..."

If you are indicating "Do not pitch" and the pitcher pitches, what is your call? If "Do not pitch" signal is not a suspension of play, then the pitch must be legal or illegal, no "NO PITCH".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by gumpire

I don't understand how or where in the rules you keep coming back to "LIVE BALL"?

Maybe answering this question will help me sort it out.....how do you indicate to the pitcher that it is now ok to pitch? If you declare "PLAY" or "PLAY BALL" is that not an indication that the ball was "dead" and you're now making it "live"?

Rule 6 Section 10 (& Section 9 for SP) clearly state that:
"No pitch shall be declared when:
A. The pitcher pitches during the suspension of play.
..."

If you are indicating "Do not pitch" and the pitcher pitches, what is your call? If "Do not pitch" signal is not a suspension of play, then the pitch must be legal or illegal, no "NO PITCH".

Okay, please cite the rule in the book that specifically states the ball is dead when the umpire holds the pitcher.

In SP it really doesn't make a difference. And the more you argue this point as it pertains to FP, the closer you are just providing fuel for my LBR argument. Thank you.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by gumpire

I don't understand how or where in the rules you keep coming back to "LIVE BALL"?

That's okay; I don't understand how or where in the rules you keep coming back to a dead ball.

Maybe answering this question will help me sort it out.....how do you indicate to the pitcher that it is now ok to pitch? If you declare "PLAY" or "PLAY BALL" is that not an indication that the ball was "dead" and you're now making it "live"?

No, you wouldn't make that declaration to make the ball live; it was never not live. You simply aren't allowing the pitcher to quickpitch, by holding up play (see 2009 ASA umpire manual, Page 224, top approved signal). When you are done holding up the pitcher, you simply drop your hand.

Rule 6 Section 10 (& Section 9 for SP) clearly state that: "No pitch shall be declared when:
A. The pitcher pitches during the suspension of play.
..."

If you are indicating "Do not pitch" and the pitcher pitches, what is your call? If "Do not pitch" signal is not a suspension of play, then the pitch must be legal or illegal, no "NO PITCH".

Why wouldn't you quote the entire rule 6.10? How about 6.10-B? That is also a "No Pitch" when the pitcher attempts a quick return pitch while the ball is live, but when the umpire judges it was before the batter was ready. So, no, your conclusion that any pitch when play is not suspended can't be a "No Pitch" is inaccurate. It is a "No Pitch"; and that is what you call, according to 6.10-B EFFECT.

The "Do Not Pitch" is simply used by the PU as a tool to keep the pitcher from a quick pitch; it isn't calling time or suspending any other part of play between every pitch. It is the PU's responsibility to manage the pace of the game, making sure the pitcher doesn't gain an unfair advantage over a batter that is operating within the rules. Live ball game; you keep the ball live whenever possible, but still manage the game.