Need help on live enforced as dead

[Kelvin green]

I am having a ...momemt...

I cant find the plays (case book) or the rule that deal with the live ball penalty enforced as a dead ball. We had a game today where runner had broken for TD... 20 yards behind the play was a personal foul...

We enforced it as live ball enforced as dead but coach wanted to argue (he came back game later with rule books in habd to argue). I need to file game report rto league but cant find my rule backing... I know it;s there I am just havcing one of theose moments (NFHS rules)

Thanks for the helps

[daggo66]

The only live ball penalty that can be enforced as a dead ball penalty is USC. What you wanted to do is call that play a dead ball. Your only choice in not bringing that ball back was to say that the penalty occured after the TD. If it was obvious to everyone in the stadium that it happened before the TD then you are SOL.

[ljdave]

Not digging in the rules book here, but I believe since you had a PF, and not a USC, regular enforcement applies. If it's a foul on A, basic spot is the spot of the foul; if it's a foul on B, then follow succeeding spot enforcement on a scoring play (i.e. A can take the foul on the try or the K.O.). Had it been a USC, then you enforce from the succeeding spot. Look in rule 10 under "Basic Spot"; should say that USCs are always enforced from the succeeding spot.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by ljdave

.... If it's a foul on A, basic spot is the spot of the foul; ... Look in rule 10 under "Basic Spot"; ....

In checking rule 10, basic spot, I can find no instance where the basic spot is the "spot of the foul". To save space, I did not quote the entire rule, just the beginning of each article.

SECTION 4 BASIC SPOTS
ART. 1 If a foul occurs during a down, the basic spot is determined by the action that occurs during the down....
ART. 2 The basic spot is the previous spot....
ART. 3 The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends....
ART. 4 The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends....
ART. 5 The basic spot is the succeeding spot:
ART. 6 The basic spot is the 20-yard line....
ART. 7 The basic spot is the goal line....

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Blue37

In checking rule 10, basic spot, I can find no instance where the basic spot is the "spot of the foul". To save space, I did not quote the entire rule, just the beginning of each article.

SECTION 4 BASIC SPOTS
ART. 1 If a foul occurs during a down, the basic spot is determined by the action that occurs during the down....
ART. 2 The basic spot is the previous spot....
ART. 3 The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends....
ART. 4 The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends....
ART. 5 The basic spot is the succeeding spot:
ART. 6 The basic spot is the 20-yard line....
ART. 7 The basic spot is the goal line....

10-6 First paragraph, last sentence. Also, in third paragraph.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by Forksref

10-6 First paragraph, last sentence. Also, in third paragraph.

You are confusing "basic spot" with "spot of enforcement".

The "basic spot" is NEVER the spot of the foul.

[ajmc]

Excuse me, but you might want to read just a little bit further to NF: 10.6 "Enforcement Spots, All-But-One Principle", you'll find a number of references to the "spot of the foul".

[jontheref]

A different take...I may not be understanding this the way it is posed, but we have two different things here. The hit away from the ball --a hit on an unprotected or unsuspecting player--that is a live ball foul. It is nothing more than a personal foul. Penalize it at the spot of the foul. Yes, we are calling back the td. The live ball as a dead...is for example, the runner that dives into the endzone...or raises the ball above the head or otherwise draws attention to himself. That one we will count the td and administer from the dead ball spot.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Excuse me, but you might want to read just a little bit further to NF: 10.6 "Enforcement Spots, All-But-One Principle", you'll find a number of references to the "spot of the foul".

But you will never see the "spot of the foul" referred to as the "basic spot" nor the "basic spot" referred to as the "spot of the foul".

You're excused.

[ChickenOfNC]

Yes, but under the all but one principal, a foul on the offense which occurs behind the basic spot is enforced from the spot of the foul.

The play you described was a running play at the time of the foul. The basic spot on a running play is the end of the related run. The end of the run was the goal line. The personal foul occured behind the basic spot. Enforced from the spot of the foul.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Blue37

You are confusing "basic spot" with "spot of enforcement".

The "basic spot" is NEVER the spot of the foul.

By coincidence it could be. But that is not the issue. I was trying to point out where the ABO principle is described in the rule book.

[ajmc]

Don't want to beat a dead horse, Blue37, but what you are saying is simply incorrect. Read NF 10.6.

[FeetBallRef]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

I am having a ...momemt...

I cant find the plays (case book) or the rule that deal with the live ball penalty enforced as a dead ball. We had a game today where runner had broken for TD... 20 yards behind the play was a personal foul...

We enforced it as live ball enforced as dead but coach wanted to argue (he came back game later with rule books in habd to argue). I need to file game report rto league but cant find my rule backing... I know it;s there I am just havcing one of theose moments (NFHS rules)

Thanks for the helps

KEVIN, You didn't say if the hit was before the TD or after the runner crossed the goal line.

If it was before the TD, ABO, spot of foul & back 15 yards. After the TD, dead ball personal foul (not USC) from the succeeding spot

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Don't want to beat a dead horse, Blue37, but what you are saying is simply incorrect. Read NF 10.6.

The only thing dead here is your comprehension.

10-6 is entitled ENFORCEMENT SPOTS.
10-4 is entitled BASIC SPOTS.

You will be a better official if you learn the difference between the two.

[sloth]

You won't find the answer that your looking for. The truth is, by the letter of the federation rule book, if the TD was not scored before the PF occured, you have to bring it back and asses the foul from the spot of the foul.

I had this exact same play this season. The only thing that helped me is that the ball carrier had either just crossed the line for a TD or it happend a second or two after the foul. Either way, it was close enough that I was able to just call it a dead ball PF.

Around here, calling this type of foul a "live ball PF treated as a dead ball PF" is common practice that is accepted by most coaches. Its one of those local interperations that really has no basis in the rule book, yet most officials are more than comfortable with the application.

I had a thread a month or so about the merits of this type of rules enforcement.

Question for the white hats.