Ground Rule Double or live ball?

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by 3afan

if a batted ball bounces on the ground, hits a player, then goes into dead ball territory its a GRD .... so you're choice seems like the most logical one in that particular case if its not specifically part of your "local rules"

Not a GRD, that's a book rule double - as long as "in the trees" is defined as out of play.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Not a GRD, that's a book rule double - as long as "in the trees" is defined as out of play.

I don't think GRD and BRD are formally defined in the sense you are using them. A ball which hits the ground and bounces out of play is a ground rule double because the book rule is that a ball which touches the ground and then goes out of play is a double. Am I mistaken?

[bkbjones]

A "ground rule" is a rule specific to the field (the grounds...think of the Polo Grounds) ... it has little to do with the ground as in the planet Earth ...

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

A "ground rule" is a rule specific to the field (the grounds...think of the Polo Grounds) ... it has little to do with the ground as in the planet Earth ...

Which is why the "book rule double" is actually called a "two base award."

[Dutch Alex]

I don't get it!
Only one Homerun per inning allowed (second homer is a single); however if you hit it slightly less far away it's always a double... Sounds to me as an unfair ground-rule.

All territory called out-off-boundry is dead ball, so this applies also for that tree-area. Can't be a live ball.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by youngump

I don't think GRD and BRD are formally defined in the sense you are using them. A ball which hits the ground and bounces out of play is a ground rule double because the book rule is that a ball which touches the ground and then goes out of play is a double. Am I mistaken?

Speaking ASA:

RS 26. HOME RUNS / FOUR BASE AWARDS / GROUND RULE DOUBLES.
...
PLAYING RULES & RULES SUPPLEMENT INDEX
GROUND RULE DOUBLE ........................... 8 5 I (1-4)

Sure, it is called that for the convenience of those trying to look up the rule, but still...

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by youngump

I don't think GRD and BRD are formally defined in the sense you are using them. A ball which hits the ground and bounces out of play is a ground rule double because the book rule is that a ball which touches the ground and then goes out of play is a double. Am I mistaken?

Yes, you are mistaken in this. When a situation is covered by the rule book, which this situation is, it's a book rule. Ground rules cover specific situations (to that field) that the rule book did not cover.

You want screwy GRD's? I had a coed tournament one time where the fence was so short the guys could hit everything out, the TD directed that each team gets two over the fence HR's per game, and then the next four hits after the homerun limit had been reached would be GRD, and then after that would be outs. Imagine keeping track of that BS.

Another tournament I worked, mens slowpitch, the fence was 10 feet too short so all hits over the fence were ruled foul balls.

[wadeintothem]

One thing for sure, the OP could never be a live ball. The ball is in a declared dead area. Its just one of those idiot things players say. Forget it.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Yes, you are mistaken in this. When a situation is covered by the rule book, which this situation is, it's a book rule. Ground rules cover specific situations (to that field) that the rule book did not cover.

Nope, I went and looked it up. I wasn't mistaken. Ground rules and ground rule double aren't the same derivation. For example:
Ground rule double - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or just see Dakota's post up a few lines.
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Prilosec Death

[SRW]

Please tell me you didn't just quote Wikipedia as a reliable source of information....

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by SRW

Please tell me you didn't just quote Wikipedia as a reliable source of information....

Yeah, give me a moment... I'll log in and change the entire article for ya.

I knew that wikipedia account would come in handy someday...

[youngump]

Originally Posted by SRW

Please tell me you didn't just quote Wikipedia as a reliable source of information....

Why not, every other source of information you can find is just as much based on common understanding of the term? Would this have been better:
Baseball . Baseball for Beginners . Baseball Glossary | PBS ?

Here's what a trivial define request came back with.
define:book rule double - Google Search

define:Ground rule double - Google Search
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Bubbler Pipe

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

Why not, every other source of information you can find is just as much based on common understanding of the term? Would this have been better:
Baseball . Baseball for Beginners . Baseball Glossary | PBS ?

Here's what a trivial define request came back with.
define:book rule double - Google Search

define:Ground rule double - Google Search

Okay, I know this isn't in Wikipedia or in a box of Cracker Jacks as the value is about the same, but I'll make this statement anyway.

"Ground rules" are standards based upon specific conditions particular to the field in question. No rule book addresses specific ground rules.

The rule book does address is the manner in which to address situations which occur during the game and, at times, are similar in nature to standard ground rules one may experience.

HOWEVER, it is quite possible a ground rule does NOT coincide with the rule book awards and restrictions. There was a big todo about an umpire who ruled a "ground rule triple" on a ball which rolled down an embankment adjacent to the field being used for a HS game. Problem is such a rule was not discussed prior to the game, hence when the ball left playable territory, the rule book guidelines for base awards should have been followed.

This umpire still gets ribbed about calling a "ground rule triple" and is routinely reminded there is no such animal. That is not true. Should there be specific conditions at a field which may warrant such a special or "grounds" rule that may not coincide with the rule book, they can assuming their specific organization does not forbid it. It may be possible that some organization's rules may restrict the number of bases awarded.

BTW, ASA 2.2 gives tournament officials that authority.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by youngump

Why not, every other source of information you can find is just as much based on common understanding of the term? Would this have been better:
Baseball . Baseball for Beginners . Baseball Glossary | PBS ?

Here's what a trivial define request came back with.
define:book rule double - Google Search

define:Ground rule double - Google Search

I can bring a much more definitive source to the tournament this weekend.

Otherwise, why not just accept the fact that we KNOW the difference between a book rule double and a ground rule double, accept what we are telling you as the truth as explained by myself, Mike and others, and can have verified by the Local UIC, the Regional UIC, the Deputy Director of Umpires, the Director of Umpires, the Director of Member Services and can go out, dig up Bill Klem's grave and have him tell you that what we are telling you is correct.

Don't make me hit my head on the wall out of frustration on this one...