Ground rule double?

[Paul L]

Home run fence stops at the foul lines, leaving a fifteen foot gap between it and the fences marking dead ball territory. B1 hits a hard grounder fair past third. It rolls over the left-field line into foul ball territory, then through the aforementioned gap, and keeps rolling. B1 touches 'em all while defensive coach is yelling for a ground rule double. No such ground rule was discussed in the pregame conference.

Fed Rule 5-1-1-f says that a fair batted ball over fair ground is dead if it goes over, through, or wedges in a fence. 8-4-3-i says runner advances without liability when fair ball bounces over or rolls under or through a fence or any designated boundary of the playing field.

Where should B1 be after the play? Why?

[greymule]

2B.

Fair batted ball bounced into DBT.

[Dakota]

This isn't a "ground rule double", it is a "book rule double." As greymule said. (Even though the ASA rule book does include "ground rule double" in the index, it refers you to the actual rule.)

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

This isn't a "ground rule double", it is a "book rule double."

As long as we are being precise - it is a two base award from time of pitch. For all runners. NFHS 8-4.3.h

WMB

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by greymule

2B.

Fair batted ball bounced into DBT.

Does that depend on whether the aforementioned gap between the foul pole and the side fence/line was declared a dead ball line as a ground rule?
Is that for all codes?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Does that depend on whether the aforementioned gap between the foul pole and the side fence/line was declared a dead ball line as a ground rule?
Is that for all codes?

Unless you are willing to allow a fielder to run out that gap and catch a fly ball on the back side of the home run fence for an out, you pretty much have to consider the fence and its imaginary extension an automatic dead ball line. And, yes, that would apply to all codes. Most definitions of dead-ball territory start with something like "That area beyond any real boundary, such as a fence ....". In my mind, it is understood that ALL the area past that fence is dead ball territory.

In order to not consider that dead ball territory, you would need to have defined in your pregame how the line does extend after the end of the fence. Does it curve back around behind the fence and make that area live, or does it then extend at a 90 degree angle to the end of the fence, and run parallel to the side fence or line? All obvious absurdities which could never be accepted; the obvious answer is that the home run fence is extended.

And, yes, this also still applies even if the fielder gets the ball without stopping and raising their arms.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Unless you are willing to allow a fielder to run out that gap and catch a fly ball on the back side of the home run fence for an out, you pretty much have to consider the fence and its imaginary extension an automatic dead ball line. And, yes, that would apply to all codes. Most definitions of dead-ball territory start with something like "That area beyond any real boundary, such as a fence ....". In my mind, it is understood that ALL the area past that fence is dead ball territory.

In order to not consider that dead ball territory, you would need to have defined in your pregame how the line does extend after the end of the fence. Does it curve back around behind the fence and make that area live, or does it then extend at a 90 degree angle to the end of the fence, and run parallel to the side fence or line? All obvious absurdities which could never be accepted; the obvious answer is that the home run fence is extended.

And, yes, this also still applies even if the fielder gets the ball without stopping and raising their arms.

Now obvious to me as well. Good thing I get to my second coffee before games, if not before questions.
Of course, I don't know AFA, USSSA, NSA, AAA, USFA, XYZ, Dixie, etc. yet; so I'll use that as an excuse.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Now obvious to me as well. Good thing I get to my second coffee before games, if not before questions.
Of course, I don't know AFA, USSSA, NSA, AAA, USFA, XYZ, Dixie, etc. yet; so I'll use that as an excuse.

Eh....the wording is pretty much the same in all of these codes. I think it is exactly the same in AAA and XYZ!

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

As long as we are being precise - it is a two base award from time of pitch. For all runners. NFHS 8-4.3.h

WMB

I wasn't being precise; I was being symmetrical!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if this was the home field of a HS team, would the determination of playable territory and all other ground rules not be that of that team's AD/manager/coach?

If so, maybe OP can give us what the school offered.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if this was the home field of a HS team, would the determination of playable territory and all other ground rules not be that of that team's AD/manager/coach?

If so, maybe OP can give us what the school offered.

I was PU, and had noticed the fence but didn't think about the possibility of this particular play. High school home coach offered nothing at pregame conference. Her last comment after I ruled home run was "You gotta know the ground rules, Blue!"

FWIW, I am persuaded that foul ground beyond the home run fence has to be DBT and I should have called it a "rulebook double" even in the absence of an express ground rule, based on custom and common sense. Thanks Greymule, Dakota, and AtlUmpSteve.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I was PU, and had noticed the fence but didn't think about the possibility of this particular play. High school home coach offered nothing at pregame conference. Her last comment after I ruled home run was "You gotta know the ground rules, Blue!"

FWIW, I am persuaded that foul ground beyond the home run fence has to be DBT and I should have called it a "rulebook double" even in the absence of an express ground rule, based on custom and common sense. Thanks Greymule, Dakota, and AtlUmpSteve.

First, a very small "Shame on you" for not forseeing this possibility... but it's very small compared to ...

Second - a HUGE FU to the coach. I'm not sure I'd have ejected for that comment - in fact, I probably wouldn't. But that comment would certainly have pissed me off, and gotten at least a "Coach - that's YOUR job at the plate conference." His leash would certainly be short after that comment.

And ... in the absence of a ground rule, it think it would be fair to assume this to be a rulebook double, just as it would be fair to rule a ball caught outside that invisible line where the fence should have been as a ball not caught in play.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

First, a very small "Shame on you" for not forseeing this possibility... but it's very small compared to ...

Second - a HUGE FU to the coach. I'm not sure I'd have ejected for that comment - in fact, I probably wouldn't. But that comment would certainly have pissed me off, and gotten at least a "Coach - that's YOUR job at the plate conference." His leash would certainly be short after that comment.

And ... in the absence of a ground rule, it think it would be fair to assume this to be a rulebook double, just as it would be fair to rule a ball caught outside that invisible line where the fence should have been as a ball not caught in play.

It is the home team job to define the ground rules, but it is an umpiring responsibility to know them and ensure they are defined.

I can't imagine ejecting or even being angry about that comment, especially when she was correct. But maybe Texan coaches are more difficult.

And it's a "two base award", either by book or ground rule.

[greymule]

It is true that at a field where the OF fence ends at the foul line, it sure can't hurt to clarify in the pre-game conference that any fair ball that bounces past the fence is 2 bases TOP.

This situation reminds me of a Legion game I played in 40+ years ago. Their guy hit a drive over our center fielder's head, and the ball rolled and rolled on the hard dry ground and finally, as the BR was on his way to 3B, went under a fence that separated the field from the parking lot more than 500 feet away. Our coach argued for a ground/book rule double, but the ump said that at that field, they didn't consider that distant fence to be related to the field, so it was "all you can get." So our coach argued that such should have been discussed during the pre-game conference and put the game under protest. (We won anyway, so the question became moot. I suspect the ump was careful to cover the situation in the future, though.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

True, ejection is not appropriate here. However, a "didn't you cover your ground rules at the pre-game meeting coach?" may be. Not loud to show up the coach, but to definitely get their attention.

It is the home team's responsibility to provide the ground rules, though if not offered, the umpire should ask the coach for them before allowing the coach's to leave the plate area at the pre-game.

This should have been a "ground" rule double and you should have been able to sell it.