Umpire Error

[rottiron01]

Slow Pitch Softball
Home plate umpire calls the batter out for being out of the batter box. (The batter did step up but there was no box being used. ) There was a runner on first and second. The umpires met and ruled: Batter gets first base, the runner on first gets third, and the runner from second scored. They used their judgment at the time the ball was picked up by the outfielder. The offensive team protests the game. Is this misinterpretation of a rule or not because they straightened it out before the next pitch?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rottiron01

Slow Pitch Softball
Home plate umpire calls the batter out for being out of the batter box. (The batter did step up but there was no box being used. )

Not true. The batter's box is always there.

There was a runner on first and second. The umpires met and ruled: Batter gets first base, the runner on first gets third, and the runner from second scored. They used their judgment at the time the ball was picked up by the outfielder. The offensive team protests the game. Is this misinterpretation of a rule or not because they straightened it out before the next pitch?

Why would the offense protest a call that obviously was wrong in their favor?

I have a feeling you haven't given us the whole story or have really screwed up the scenario presented.

[rottiron01]

Can an umpire call out of the box when a box wasn't put there in the beginning of the game?

These are inmates so if they feel they were benefited from not being called out but thought their runner should have scored they will complain (Appeal). Especially when they lost by one run. I am just trying to justify the umpires decision.

Thanks for your help.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rottiron01

Can an umpire call out of the box when a box wasn't put there in the beginning of the game?

Again, THE BOX IS ALWAYS THERE! Just because you cannot see it does not negate the rule.

These are inmates so if they feel they were benefited from not being called out but thought their runner should have scored they will complain (Appeal). Especially when they lost by one run. I am just trying to justify the umpires decision.

Thanks for your help.

I don't care who they are, the rules don't change and the play you presented still doesn't make any sense.

If the batter stepped out of the box, how did he end up on 1B? If the batter is ruled out for making contact with the ball with a foot outside of the box, the ball is dead, the batter out and all runners are returned to the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by rottiron01

Slow Pitch Softball
Home plate umpire calls the batter out for being out of the batter box. (The batter did step up but there was no box being used. )

The batter's box is a designated part of the field. ALWAYS. You must have meant that the field was not lined. Whether the field was lined or not, the batter's box is always there. Just like the foul lines are always there.

There was a runner on first and second. The umpires met and ruled: Batter gets first base, the runner on first gets third, and the runner from second scored. They used their judgment at the time the ball was picked up by the outfielder.

How did the ball get to the outfielder? I'm assuming the batter hit the ball to the outfield?

And the umpires are giving the runners two bases....did the ball get thrown into dead ball territory?

There is more to this story that you have not told us .... please clarify.

Why would the batter be given first base when he was declared out for being out of the batter's box? And the other runners were given two bases?

Based on what I gather from the OP, if the ruling was that the batter is out for being out of the box, the ball is dead and all runners are put back, as was already stated. The umpire really should not and must not "overturn" this.

The offensive team protests the game. Is this misinterpretation of a rule or not because they straightened it out before the next pitch?

Not enough info to answer this.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by rottiron01

Can an umpire call out of the box when a box wasn't put there in the beginning of the game?

These are inmates so if they feel they were benefited from not being called out but thought their runner should have scored they will complain (Appeal). Especially when they lost by one run. I am just trying to justify the umpires decision.

Thanks for your help.

A complaint or whine is not an appeal. An appeal is defined by the rule book of the sanctioning body that you and the league are sanctioned under. A judgement that a batter hits the ball while out of the box is just that - whether the lines are present or not - a judgement decision/call.

[Steve M]

Since these are inmates, I'm reminded of a story my state uic tells when saying he used to think there are no dumb questions. He was giving an umpire clinic at a state prison and was speaking of a ball hit to a collapsable fence. He asked something to the effect of "Do you have fences here?"

[steveshane67]

You guys are all missing the point of the post.

the home plate ump initially thought the batter had stepped out of the batters box (ie since there was no painted lines, thought he was too far towards the pitcher when he hit the ball). the runners both ran on contact, the batter probably jogged to 1B, by the time everyone realized what had happened, the runners had both proceeding 1 base and probably made a turn, and the OF just picked up the ball and was about to throw it to the infield.

now the action is over, since its just slow pitch, the umpire rethought his initial out of box call and ruled the hit was legal, and awarded bases based on what was "fair" not necessarily what is written in the rules, most slow pitch umps dont even know there is a rule book let alone can cite rule 5 section 6 subletter E part ii (just saying the softball rulebook is overly complex).

since this is a slow pitch game (probably a rec league), and most slow pitch leagues dont paint the batters boxes for whatever reason, the ump just did what he thought was right to correct his mistake. its not like the OF let a flyball drop or anything like that, so its really no big deal. if anything, he should have just awarded the batter 1st and only move the runners up 1 base.

the previous responses to the thread are unnecessarily condescending and the posters need to back off their "rulebook knowledge" pedestals, its slow pitch softball, ppl [most] play just to have fun.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

You guys are all missing the point of the post.

No one missed the point, just responded based upon what was offered. If we could read minds, we wouldn't be doing this.

the home plate ump initially thought the batter had stepped out of the batters box (ie since there was no painted lines, thought he was too far towards the pitcher when he hit the ball).

Yeah, we all got that.

the runners both ran on contact, the batter probably jogged to 1B, by the time everyone realized what had happened, the runners had both proceeding 1 base and probably made a turn, and the OF just picked up the ball and was about to throw it to the infield.

now the action is over, since its just slow pitch,

helluva stupid comment

the umpire rethought his initial out of box call and ruled the hit was legal, and awarded bases based on what was "fair" not necessarily what is written in the rules, most slow pitch umps dont even know there is a rule book let alone can cite rule 5 section 6 subletter E part ii (just saying the softball rulebook is overly complex).

since this is a slow pitch game (probably a rec league), and most slow pitch leagues dont paint the batters boxes for whatever reason, the ump just did what he thought was right to correct his mistake. its not like the OF let a flyball drop or anything like that, so its really no big deal. if anything, he should have just awarded the batter 1st and only move the runners up 1 base.

the previous responses to the thread are unnecessarily condescending and the posters need to back off their "rulebook knowledge" pedestals, its slow pitch softball, ppl [most] play just to have fun.

[/quote]

Boy, you are just full of it. Or maybe you are just doing your best to demonstrate your ignorance of the game and it's umpires.

A rec league in a prison, imagine that. I doubt it was a tournament team. (now, that is a condescending response).

None of what you just commented was in the OP or subsequent posts. Until the last paragraph, there were no condescending comments, just accurate reiterated comments concerning the BB. The rest of the OP was relative jibberish for which clarification was requested.

If your interpretation of the scenario is accurate, the umpire screwed things up, big time and I don't care if he is in a prison. Since you don't make that call on a guess or supposition, the call should stand. Since this is a dead ball, as previously posted, no other action can take place.

And if you want "fair", go find a carnival.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

You guys are all missing the point of the post.

the home plate ump initially thought the batter had stepped out of the batters box (ie since there was no painted lines, thought he was too far towards the pitcher when he hit the ball). the runners both ran on contact, the batter probably jogged to 1B, by the time everyone realized what had happened, the runners had both proceeding 1 base and probably made a turn, and the OF just picked up the ball and was about to throw it to the infield.

now the action is over, since its just slow pitch, the umpire rethought his initial out of box call and ruled the hit was legal, and awarded bases based on what was "fair" not necessarily what is written in the rules, most slow pitch umps dont even know there is a rule book let alone can cite rule 5 section 6 subletter E part ii (just saying the softball rulebook is overly complex).

since this is a slow pitch game (probably a rec league), and most slow pitch leagues dont paint the batters boxes for whatever reason, the ump just did what he thought was right to correct his mistake. its not like the OF let a flyball drop or anything like that, so its really no big deal. if anything, he should have just awarded the batter 1st and only move the runners up 1 base.

the previous responses to the thread are unnecessarily condescending and the posters need to back off their "rulebook knowledge" pedestals, its slow pitch softball, ppl [most] play just to have fun.

If you don't want a rules based answer, then why ask the question?
Now, I admit, I don't care for rec ball. I want to be in a game where the players care about winning - not where their first focus is on just having fun.

Now, you've also got a major foul-up by the umpire when he reversed himself on a judgement call. He was properly positioned and saw everything he needed to see - and - made a judgement call. To reverse that later is just plain wrong.

As to you saying "most slow pitch umps dont even know there is a rule book let alone can cite rule 5 section 6 subletter E part ii (just saying the softball rulebook is overly complex)." You've got several folks here who umpire a lot of slow pitch and I suspect they take great exception to that.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

You guys are all missing the point of the post.

the home plate ump initially thought the batter had stepped out of the batters box (ie since there was no painted lines, thought he was too far towards the pitcher when he hit the ball). the runners both ran on contact, the batter probably jogged to 1B, by the time everyone realized what had happened, the runners had both proceeding 1 base and probably made a turn, and the OF just picked up the ball and was about to throw it to the infield.

now the action is over, since its just slow pitch, the umpire rethought his initial out of box call and ruled the hit was legal, and awarded bases based on what was "fair" not necessarily what is written in the rules, most slow pitch umps dont even know there is a rule book let alone can cite rule 5 section 6 subletter E part ii (just saying the softball rulebook is overly complex).

since this is a slow pitch game (probably a rec league), and most slow pitch leagues dont paint the batters boxes for whatever reason, the ump just did what he thought was right to correct his mistake. its not like the OF let a flyball drop or anything like that, so its really no big deal. if anything, he should have just awarded the batter 1st and only move the runners up 1 base.

the previous responses to the thread are unnecessarily condescending and the posters need to back off their "rulebook knowledge" pedestals, its slow pitch softball, ppl [most] play just to have fun.

I think you completely missed the post yourself...

Originally Posted by rottiron01

Is this misinterpretation of a rule or not because they straightened it out before the next pitch?

He's asking for a rule interpretation, so we gave him one.

We're trying to help the guy out. It's my impression that he's somehow directly involved in this league, and we will gladly answer his question. However, there are times when A) we need to clarify some points with him beforehand and B) we need to get all the facts straight.

So what if it's slow pitch? It's still a sport with rules. Rules that everyone agrees to follow when they take up the sport. You're right, the rulebook is a complex, wordy document that, sadly, some umpires either never read or get halfway through it before giving up.

However, I've read it. Dozens and dozens of times. That's why I do what I do, and I do it well. That's why I'm here every day, happily answering (almost) everyone's questions.

Officiating any sport is a noble profession, and slow pitch is no exception. This gentleman (I'm assuming he's male, and I apologize if I'm mistaken) came to us with a rule question. We will happily work with this individual, who quite clearly has a desire to see the sport "done right," even if it's for inmates.

You, sir, appear to be quite content in belittling the sport, and all those who strive to better it. If that's your station in life, fine, but don't expect it to be mine.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Steve M

As to you saying "most slow pitch umps dont even know there is a rule book let alone can cite rule 5 section 6 subletter E part ii (just saying the softball rulebook is overly complex)." You've got several folks here who umpire a lot of slow pitch and I suspect they take great exception to that.

And I'm definitely one of them. 17 years behind the plate, Bub, and all of them were slow pitch.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

You guys are all missing the point of the post.

the home plate ump initially thought the batter had stepped out of the batters box (ie since there was no painted lines, thought he was too far towards the pitcher when he hit the ball). the runners both ran on contact, the batter probably jogged to 1B, by the time everyone realized what had happened, the runners had both proceeding 1 base and probably made a turn, and the OF just picked up the ball and was about to throw it to the infield.

now the action is over, since its just slow pitch, the umpire rethought his initial out of box call and ruled the hit was legal, and awarded bases based on what was "fair" not necessarily what is written in the rules, most slow pitch umps dont even know there is a rule book let alone can cite rule 5 section 6 subletter E part ii (just saying the softball rulebook is overly complex).
since this is a slow pitch game (probably a rec league), and most slow pitch leagues dont paint the batters boxes for whatever reason, the ump just did what he thought was right to correct his mistake. its not like the OF let a flyball drop or anything like that, so its really no big deal. if anything, he should have just awarded the batter 1st and only move the runners up 1 base.

the previous responses to the thread are unnecessarily condescending and the posters need to back off their "rulebook knowledge" pedestals, its slow pitch softball, ppl [most] play just to have fun.

Yah..you're an Idiot.....

[steveshane67]

Im gonna tackle this in order of the posts made

Irishmafia

"Again, THE BOX IS ALWAYS THERE! Just because you cannot see it does not negate the rule."

no need to yell

"If the batter stepped out of the box, how did he end up on 1B?"

this isnt some magical world where once your foot lands outside the batters box, you lose all ability to hit the ball, obviously the ump reversed his decision to declare it a dead ball. i dont know how that wasnt 100% clear from the initial post


lilblueasa

"The batter's box is a designated part of the field. ALWAYS."

yes, we know, thats already been established 2 times, no need to beat a dead horse

"How did the ball get to the outfielder? I'm assuming the batter hit the ball to the outfield?"

that must have required a giant leap in your deductive reasoning skills

"And the umpires are giving the runners two bases....did the ball get thrown into dead ball territory?"

no, the ump decided to award the runners what bases they would have obtained if the ump said nothing about the batter being out of the batters box. once again, i dont know how that wasnt 100% clear from the initial post

"Why would the batter be given first base when he was declared out for being out of the batter's box?"

did you even read the post? the ump decided he was wrong in saying the batter was out of the box, so he corrected his mistake as best he thought he could.


Steve M

"A complaint or whine is not an appeal. An appeal is defined by the rule book of the sanctioning body that you and the league are sanctioned under."

thanks for the clarification, i think we all were confused by this one.


Irish mafia

"the home plate ump initially thought the batter had stepped out of the batters box (ie since there was no painted lines, thought he was too far towards the pitcher when he hit the ball).

Yeah, we all got that."

no, 2 previous posters did not understand this point, as demonstrated earlier in my post

"A rec league in a prison, imagine that. I doubt it was a tournament team"

that one Ill take the blame for. I thought inmates might have been slang for something else, i didnt know he literally meant it was a game in a prison. Side note, what prison has softball games with mutliple umpires, and with "spectators" who care enough about a play to post a question about it online??? What prison is this, if I ever go to jail, I want to go there.


Steve M

"To reverse that later is just plain wrong."

this is where I bet the majority of the ppl on here would disagree with me. I dont care what level of play or sport, the umpires/referees job is to get the call correct. If they initially made a wrong call, be a man, admit you messed up, and fix it as best as possible.

"You've got several folks here who umpire a lot of slow pitch and I suspect they take great exception to that. "

I understand the ppl on here are very knowledgable and have been doing this a long time. That was more a reflection of the certified ASA umpires that have umped games I play in, most of them dont even know basic rules. I could go through a litany of rules/calls they have botched severly. Im sure there are good umpires out there, just not many doing slow pitch softball.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

this isnt some magical world where once your foot lands outside the batters box, you lose all ability to hit the ball, obviously the ump reversed his decision to declare it a dead ball. i dont know how that wasnt 100% clear from the initial post





that must have required a giant leap in your deductive reasoning skills



no, the ump decided to award the runners what bases they would have obtained if the ump said nothing about the batter being out of the batters box. once again, i dont know how that wasnt 100% clear from the initial post



did you even read the post? the ump decided he was wrong in saying the batter was out of the box, so he corrected his mistake as best he thought he could.

First, I am not sure how the OP was clear in much of anything. I was asking for clarification the OP went from R1 on 2nd and R1 on first and the batter being out of the box to batter being given first base and R1 given home and R2 given 3rd when the ball reached the outfielder. The OP asked about a misapplication of a rule which could be grounds for a protest. It was stated that the OFFENSIVE team protested. I would think that the DEFENSIVE team would be a bit shocked by the umpires ruling putting runners to additional bases AFTER it was ruled that the ball was DEAD on contact. EVEN IF the umpires decided that the call was wrong for hitting the ball out of the batter's box, ruling the ball dead put the DEFENSE in an unfair position, because the outfielder is NOT given the opportunity to make an out on any of the runners, due to an umpiring error. An umpire has the responsibility to get the call right. Because the umpire ruled the ball DEAD, and now wants to rule..."just kidding" and give runners two bases, should make the DEFENSE want to protest.

Hence why there were several of us asking for clarification. And none of us were being condescending or nasty. He asked for help, and in order to give it, we wanted to be clear.

I don't appreciate you singling me out. If the post was clear to you....you should have addressed the OP. Not those of us who know the rules and wanted to really help.

I'm sorry for you...where ever you play...that you don't have good quality umpires. It is an unfortunate fact of life however, everywhere you go. There will be good and poor doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. And yes...even umpires. It's a human element. We all make mistakes.

Your post generalizing and condescending slow pitch umpires and the game shows that even you make mistakes, too.