Poor OC

[vcblue]

League play-offs, time has expired, home team at bat down by 1 run. R1 on 2nd, 2 outs, Ball hit to right field. BR makes it and stops on first. R1 round 3rd and is coming home. Ball is relayed to pitch in the circle. Pitcher does not attempt to throw it home. I hear 1st base coach yell go...go...go. BR takes off to second. I call dead ball before R1 scores. BR out, R1 returned to third. Ball game!

Needless to say the home team manager comes running out. Stated that because she was more than half way between bases R1 should be awarded home. I told him no the effect of this rule is that the runners go back to the last base touched. He told me that he was protesting.

So now all the board members there are huddling around the rule book. So, I asked for the rule book and showed them the rule and effect. 8-7-T-2 effect.

Don't you wish there was such a thing as a Coaches Error (CE).

[wadeintothem]

Were they expecting to find a rule like..

"If the runner is more than 1/2 way home when the offense cheats, award the runner home."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by vcblue

League play-offs, time has expired, home team at bat down by 1 run. R1 on 2nd, 2 outs, Ball hit to right field. BR makes it and stops on first. R1 round 3rd and is coming home. Ball is relayed to pitch in the circle. Pitcher does not attempt to throw it home. I hear 1st base coach yell go...go...go. BR takes off to second. I call dead ball before R1 scores. BR out, R1 returned to third. Ball game!

Needless to say the home team manager comes running out. Stated that because she was more than half way between bases R1 should be awarded home. I told him no the effect of this rule is that the runners go back to the last base touched. He told me that he was protesting.

So now all the board members there are huddling around the rule book. So, I asked for the rule book and showed them the rule and effect. 8-7-T-2 effect.

Don't you wish there was such a thing as a Coaches Error (CE).

As you describe this play, I do not believe the LBR applies. A ball was put into play and there were still active runners. If you are going to effect the LBR, does that mean that the pitcher must stop playing at this point?

I know there are purist out there (even though the LBR is not part of it) who believe the LBR should be in effect ANYTIME the pitcher has the ball in the circle. I disagree.

The purpose of the LBR is not to stop play, but to control the game between plays.

[archangel]

I umpire baseball, not softball, but the OP rule sounds like a chance for the defense to stop play prior to any runner scoring....as in, dont throw home, just throw to F1 in the circle. Explain please....

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

As you describe this play, I do not believe the LBR applies. A ball was put into play and there were still active runners. If you are going to effect the LBR, does that mean that the pitcher must stop playing at this point?

I know there are purist out there (even though the LBR is not part of it) who believe the LBR should be in effect ANYTIME the pitcher has the ball in the circle. I disagree.

The purpose of the LBR is not to stop play, but to control the game between plays.

From the way I read the OP, I am tending to agree with you in regard to the LBR. I am envisioning the ball coming into the circle(and pitcher's possession) and R2 (former BR) immediately heading to second with no pause or hesitation.

However, even though the LBR may have been wrongly applied, it appears the OC wasn't concerned about that aspect of it, but instead only concerned about the runner placement. If that is the case, and the coach isn't protesting the application of the rule, but the awarding of runners, then the play, as described, must stand.

[NCASAUmp]

I'm sorry, was this thread supposed to evoke sympathy towards a coach?

Must've missed that...

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

From the way I read the OP, I am tending to agree with you in regard to the LBR. I am envisioning the ball coming into the circle(and pitcher's possession) and R2 (former BR) immediately heading to second with no pause or hesitation.

However, even though the LBR may have been wrongly applied, it appears the OC wasn't concerned about that aspect of it, but instead only concerned about the runner placement. If that is the case, and the coach isn't protesting the application of the rule, but the awarding of runners, then the play, as described, must stand.

LBR may or may not been correctly applied - by the description I would categorize that at worst - HTBT; however probably correct. A runner stopped at first with the ball in the circle cannot dart for 2B. Thats pretty much in black and white as all of you know- So it very well could have been correct.

This is very similar to the walk - br to 2B with R1 @ 3B and ball returned to the pitcher in the circle. Timing would be everything and there very well could be a LBR at 3B if things are not properly handled.

[vcblue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

As you describe this play, I do not believe the LBR applies. A ball was put into play and there were still active runners. If you are going to effect the LBR, does that mean that the pitcher must stop playing at this point?

I know there are purist out there (even though the LBR is not part of it) who believe the LBR should be in effect ANYTIME the pitcher has the ball in the circle. I disagree.

The purpose of the LBR is not to stop play, but to control the game between plays.

Irish...Thanks for the "food-for-thought". In this case I saw the pitcher receive the ball look at the runner at third, and judged her not to attempt a play at home. She had the ball for a good 2 to 3 seconds before the BR took off.

My only question back to you is; If you don't call the rules as written (call it being a purist) are you not penalizing the other team?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by vcblue

Irish...Thanks for the "food-for-thought". In this case I saw the pitcher receive the ball look at the runner at third, and judged her not to attempt a play at home. She had the ball for a good 2 to 3 seconds before the BR took off.

My only question back to you is; If you don't call the rules as written (call it being a purist) are you not penalizing the other team?

Caveat Lector! Mike thinks the whole LBR is a crock.

[chicago11]

just out of curiosity, what age group was this?

I have a hard time imaging a scenario where in a playoff game in the last inning, the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the tying run is 4 seconds away from scoring and the pitcher doesn't even attempt a play at the plate.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

LBR may or may not been correctly applied - by the description I would categorize that at worst - HTBT; however probably correct. A runner stopped at first with the ball in the circle cannot dart for 2B. Thats pretty much in black and white as all of you know- So it very well could have been correct.

This is very similar to the walk - br to 2B with R1 @ 3B and ball returned to the pitcher in the circle. Timing would be everything and there very well could be a LBR at 3B if things are not properly handled.

Which is why, in my post, I left the opening for this possibility by saying how I envisioned it. It could very well have been correctly applied, but as I also stated, that doesn't seem to be the issue with the coach, so this is all pretty much moot anyway.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

As you describe this play, I do not believe the LBR applies. A ball was put into play and there were still active runners. If you are going to effect the LBR, does that mean that the pitcher must stop playing at this point?

I know there are purist out there (even though the LBR is not part of it) who believe the LBR should be in effect ANYTIME the pitcher has the ball in the circle. I disagree.

The purpose of the LBR is not to stop play, but to control the game between plays.

The fact that the lead runner was rounding third has no bearing on the play. All of the elements for the look back rule are in place.

1. The BR made it to first base.
2. The BR stopped on 1st base.
3. The pitcher had the ball.
4. The pitcher was in the circle.
5. The pitcher did not make a play on another runner.

All the elements are there. The LBR is not applied to all runners simultaneously. In other words, you can have a player who is in jeopardy of being called out on the LBR while another runner is not. This is one example. Another is: R1 on 3rd. Batter draws a walk. R1 is off of the bag on the release of the pitch and has come to a stop. The BR steps on first and goes to second. The pitcher has the ball in the circle. If the pitcher makes no attempt to retire the BR, R1 is in jeopardy of being called out if she does not go back to 3rd. She had her one stop. She now must advance to home or return to 3rd.

[vcblue]

Originally Posted by chicago11

just out of curiosity, what age group was this?

I have a hard time imaging a scenario where in a playoff game in the last inning, the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the tying run is 4 seconds away from scoring and the pitcher doesn't even attempt a play at the plate.

It was 12U, the pitcher gave up on the play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Okay, I thought y'all be smart enough to pick up and talk about my point, but apparently I need to explain it.

My point is when does the pitcher stop becoming a fielder and return to the status of a pitcher?

Based on what I am reading in the replies, the pitcher is always a pitcher and never a fielder. Do you enforce the LBR immediately if a pitcher catches a ball in flight in the circle? If so, you have removed a runner's right to tag up and advance on a caught fly ball. Of if running on the pitch and has reached the next base, the ability to attempt to return to the base they need to tag to avoid being put out.

This was discussed two years ago at the UIC Clinic with Walt Sparks and, at least in my group, the consensus seemed to be that the LBR isn't in effect until, in the judgment of the umpire, the effects of the ball being put into play are completed.

Think about it from a runner's point of view. A throw from the outfield is cut off by SOMEONE in the middle of the infield. Do you really expect the runners and coaches to be able to immediately identify this player as the one who pitched the ball and adjust their running assignments accordingly?

As previously stated, I don't believe this was the purpose of the LBR. Whether I like the rule or not is irrelevant to the discussion.

[robbie]

Originally Posted by rwest

The fact that the lead runner was rounding third has no bearing on the play. All of the elements for the look back rule are in place.

1. The BR made it to first base.
2. The BR stopped on 1st base.
3. The pitcher had the ball.
4. The pitcher was in the circle.
5. The pitcher did not make a play on another runner.

All the elements are there. The LBR is not applied to all runners simultaneously. In other words, you can have a player who is in jeopardy of being called out on the LBR while another runner is not. This is one example. Another is: R1 on 3rd. Batter draws a walk. R1 is off of the bag on the release of the pitch and has come to a stop. The BR steps on first and goes to second. The pitcher has the ball in the circle. If the pitcher makes no attempt to retire the BR, R1 is in jeopardy of being called out if she does not go back to 3rd. She had her one stop. She now must advance to home or return to 3rd.

I only do NSA rules. I assume the above is an accurate quote of ASA or Fed or some other rule set. If so, LBR criteria are met. However..............

In NSA, it does not even meet the first requirement:
"Look Back Rule: When a runner is legitimately off a base........."
The BR (Now R2) was not off base.

No LBR