Heard today from a coach

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Fozzie

Easy Wade.
He never laid anything on his partner. He never asked his partner a thing about judgement on the play. He merely pointed out the coach asked a stupid question, and he shared it with his BU.

I think what wade's concerned about is the fact that anytime you go to your partner for help on something where help shouldn't be asked for, you lose credibility as an umpire. I agree 100% with this philosophy. Even appearing to go for help (when you really aren't) will lessen your credibility on a judgment call. Not may, but will. You've now shown the coach that you can get pushed closer towards calling it his/her way.

Still a funny story, though. I could imagine it going like this...

Coach: Could you ask your partner if he had a different angle?
Me: Sure! Hey, John, did you have a different angle on the play?
John: I sure did. About 38 degrees off the 1B line.

[Fozzie]

Okay I see that point. Not sure I agree 100%. Sometimes you read a situation and maybe the best way to handle it is to humor the coach's dumb request. If I think that will put a end to it. Otherwise, Yes, I agree with you and Wade. Forget it coach, lets play.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by outathm

I normally wouldn't just ask. But this time (above) the coach asked me to see if my partner had a different angle. Not a question of my judgment, didn't imply I had missed anything. The coach was curious if my partner had a a different angle. Question was asked and answered. Out stayed and the game went on.

Look, I can understand the reason you did this. But, unless the coach has something that HE saw that you might have missed, and he can tell you what that is, by merely asking for a look from a different angle, he is asking for a second opinion on a judgment call.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dakota

You forgot "keep the coach happy."

You know, my mere presence should do that!!!

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Fozzie

Okay I see that point. Not sure I agree 100%. Sometimes you read a situation and maybe the best way to handle it is to humor the coach's dumb request. If I think that will put a end to it. Otherwise, Yes, I agree with you and Wade. Forget it coach, lets play.

IMO, you really cant. A good partner will tell you not to do that to him again. There is never a time you should meet just to humor a coach. There should be a reason you are meeting with your partner. A coach asking for "Angle" is BS - we know that except for a very very few things like pulled foot or if you are in C and a pick at 1B, we're not going for help. Other than that you should be 8-15 feet from the play and in a good spot.

Just because it was a banger and coach wants a second shot at a call is never a reason. From your perspective, just because the coach is pressuring you doesnt mean you must fold. Ownership of a call is very important. ESPECIALLY if you know you screwed it up. I'm not gonna relieve you of your heat. Thats on you.

FYI: My previous post was not directed at any one poster, including the OP. It was a general rant.

[ronald]

Wouldn't you know I had a play yesterday that reminded me of this thread and I was thinking some of these same thoughts as the coach is making her way out to me.

I was behind and left of ss, bunt caught by pitcher and throw back to 1b for time play. I had moved to just short of the base path b/w 2b and 3b. I rule safe and the coach starts asking PU for an "appeal". PU directs her to me and I start to walk to meet her halfway and instead of getting to me she hollers can I appeal that. I said no, I saw it. End of conversation.

Hmmmm...maybe the OP is one of those moments where I'd respond "Coach, before I go to my partner, I need to get my dog out of the car. I can't see that far up the baseline!"

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Hmmmm...maybe the OP is one of those moments where I'd respond "Coach, before I go to my partner, I need to get my dog out of the car. I can't see that far up the baseline!"

Sad thing is, I could name a few umpires who could honestly make this claim!

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

You should NEVER go for help when a coach asks when the only question he has involves your judgement.

Unless it is to get your foot out of his @$$.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by Fozzie

Okay I see that point. Not sure I agree 100%. Sometimes you read a situation and maybe the best way to handle it is to humor the coach's dumb request. If I think that will put a end to it. Otherwise, Yes, I agree with you and Wade. Forget it coach, lets play.

RANT ON!
Why would you throw the only person who might even be remotely on your side under the bus? No otherwise. Get his *** back in the dugout and play ball. The only person you are helping is the coach. Meanwhile, you've now undermined any credibility you might have had AND undermined your partner. You now owe your partner two beers, a steak and an B. F.apology.

The ballfield is not this sterile, PC place where we try to placate everyone (even up here in PC paradise, more about that later), and we especially don't placate coaches. If you want coaches to be your friend, then go coach.

RANT OFF! FOR NOW!!!!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

RANT ON!
Why would you throw the only person who might even be remotely on your side under the bus?

I must be missing something here. I don't see where anyone has been thrown anywhere. It seems the umpire used this as a game management tool. No big deal. I am making an assumption the umpires were familiar and comfortable with each other and knew what was going on. AND was familiar enough with the teams to know what needed to be done.

No, I will not go for help on any judgment. But I will go if a coach/player can voice a specific concern that deals with additional information which may have affected the call which my partner may provide. If I have a familiar veteran partner, s/he will already be discretely telling me if they have something.

Now, if an umpire goes to his partner, does not get info that would change a call and changes it anyway. Now THAT is a problem unless he has explained a problem and his partner agrees to take the heat PRIOR to the umpire making the call.

I have never had that happen, but am aware of times it has happened to other umpires.

[Fozzie]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

RANT ON!
Why would you throw the only person who might even be remotely on your side under the bus? No otherwise. Get his *** back in the dugout and play ball. The only person you are helping is the coach. Meanwhile, you've now undermined any credibility you might have had AND undermined your partner. You now owe your partner two beers, a steak and an B. F.apology.

The ballfield is not this sterile, PC place where we try to placate everyone (even up here in PC paradise, more about that later), and we especially don't placate coaches. If you want coaches to be your friend, then go coach.

RANT OFF! FOR NOW!!!!

Whoa! We are talking about a game management tool here. In a situation that was not even mine. I said if, and only if this would end it, then fine. I got no problem with the way it was handled.

And as far as throwing my partner under the bus? I just don't see that here. If I trust my partner why should I have a problem going to him on anything other then judgement. After all he is my only friend. And assuming he has my back on this situation, as he should. I really don't think I have helped the coach with anything. If anything we just told him 'no you are wrong' twice without every raising my voice.

I guess I don't see a reason to get riled up here. But this seems to happen anytime anyone talks about going to their partner on this forum.

[wadeintothem]

yeah! what bkb said!

We dont have to take that crap anymore. Tell em how it is.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Fozzie

Whoa! We are talking about a game management tool here. In a situation that was not even mine. I said if, and only if this would end it, then fine. I got no problem with the way it was handled.

And as far as throwing my partner under the bus? I just don't see that here. If I trust my partner why should I have a problem going to him on anything other then judgement. After all he is my only friend. And assuming he has my back on this situation, as he should. I really don't think I have helped the coach with anything. If anything we just told him 'no you are wrong' twice without every raising my voice.

I guess I don't see a reason to get riled up here. But this seems to happen anytime anyone talks about going to their partner on this forum.

I don't see a reason to get riled up, either. It's not a question about "should I ever go to my partner?" It's a question of "should I go to my partner just because I've been asked to?"

If you go to your partner every time you're asked, I don't think you're throwing your partner under the bus. You're throwing yourself under the bus.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

For those of you that don't know, my oldest son, MTD, Jr. (a freshmen in college this year), is in his 2nd year of umpiring H.S. baseball and during the summer also umpires ASA and USSSA fastpitch. Last summer in a boys' 14U baseball game, he had had a batter-rummer out at first base on a semi-close play. The offensive team's HC was using a substitute as a first base coach because his assistant coach had to work 2nd shift. After Mark had made the call he comes trotting out to Jr., from his third base coaching box, and asked Mark what he saw and Mark replied: I saw the batter make an out. That ended the discussion.

MTD, Sr.