Federation play

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

The technicality I'm hanging my hat on, from the case play: Doesn't exactly say there has to BE a next pitch. Only that is it time for it.

And you can't reach the time of the next pitch unless the ball is live. You aren't going to make the ball live unitl you have a batter in the box. So you can't just wait the 20 seconds the pitcher has to pitch and then call the BR out.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by rwest

And you can't reach the time of the next pitch unless the ball is live. You aren't going to make the ball live unitl you have a batter in the box.

Says who? It's as valid as calling TIME with a play still ongoing!

So you can't just wait the 20 seconds the pitcher has to pitch and then call the BR out.

Oh yeah?

OK, what's YOUR solution?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Says who? It's as valid as calling TIME with a play still ongoing! Oh yeah?

OK, what's YOUR solution?

So you are saying that you are going to make the ball live without a batter in the box? When a coach calls time, when do you make the ball live? I wait until the batter is in the box. One mistake doesn't justify another.

My solution is as follows....

I can't make the ball live until I have a batter in the box. I guess I'd call the BR back into the box, announce I have 1 ball and 3 strikes and hope someone notice the count and does something. If not then I tell the pitcher to pitch. Then if she pitches, declare the batter out and nullify the run, then explain it to the coach and possibly have to send him home early.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by rwest

So you are saying that you are going to make the ball live without a batter in the box? When a coach calls time, when do you make the ball live? I wait until the batter is in the box. One mistake doesn't justify another.

My solution is as follows....

I can't make the ball live until I have a batter in the box. I guess I'd call the BR back into the box, announce I have 1 ball and 3 strikes and hope someone notice the count and does something. If not then I tell the pitcher to pitch. Then if she pitches, declare the batter out and nullify the run, then explain it to the coach and possibly have to send him home early.

call me crazy (and i am) but I wouldnt send a coach home on this, period... I deserve whatever he/she gives me.

[Jimmie24]

There is not much that you can do. You messed up. I don't see where bringing a batter into the box with a 1 and 3 count is covered by the rules too. If she isn't going to advance call her out and have the teams switch. There is no easy road out of this. As the head coach comes walking by you have two options. 1) think thin and hope he doesn't see you or 2) crawl into that hole. As he rips you for calling time, nod your head in agreement and tell him to keep it nice.

Honestly though, he needs to shoulder some blame too. He nor his batter had their head in the game. He should've been hollering at her to run from the moment it hit the ground.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Jimmie24

There is not much that you can do. You messed up. I don't see where bringing a batter into the box with a 1 and 3 count is covered by the rules too. If she isn't going to advance call her out and have the teams switch. There is no easy road out of this. As the head coach comes walking by you have two options. 1) think thin and hope he doesn't see you or 2) crawl into that hole. As he rips you for calling time, nod your head in agreement and tell him to keep it nice.

Honestly though, he needs to shoulder some blame too. He nor his batter had their head in the game. He should've been hollering at her to run from the moment it hit the ground.

It's not covered but neither is calling the BR out for not advancing since nothing in 8-2 is applicable. I don't believe you can make the ball live until you have a batter. I don't in any other situation when time has been called. So I can't get an out because the BR has not advanced to first before the next pitch. The pitcher can't pitch during a suspension of play. I'm not making the ball live until I have a batter. So we are in a quandary.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by rwest

So you are saying that you are going to make the ball live without a batter in the box? When a coach calls time, when do you make the ball live? I wait until the batter is in the box. One mistake doesn't justify another.

My solution is as follows....

I can't make the ball live until I have a batter in the box. I guess I'd call the BR back into the box, announce I have 1 ball and 3 strikes and hope someone notice the count and does something. If not then I tell the pitcher to pitch. Then if she pitches, declare the batter out and nullify the run, then explain it to the coach and possibly have to send him home early.

How can you have the pitcher pitch to a BR? I don't see how your solution is any more rules pure than mine. You pretty much do the same thing, except I don't call the BR into the box nor have the pitcher actually pitch.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

How can you have the pitcher pitch to a BR? I don't see how your solution is any more rules pure than mine. You pretty much do the same thing, except I don't call the BR into the box nor have the pitcher actually pitch.

But the pitcher can't pitch during a suspension of play and so the 20 second count can't start. So lets assume you call play ball while the BR is out of the box (which I still don't believe is proper mechanics) and the BR gets into the box. F1 throws the next pitch. You call the BR out, which I agree with. You nullify the run. If you would allow all of this to occur then you have done exactly what I said, except you didn't call the BR back into the box.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by rwest

But the pitcher can't pitch during a suspension of play and so the 20 second count can't start. So lets assume you call play ball while the BR is out of the box (which I still don't believe is proper mechanics) and the BR gets into the box. F1 throws the next pitch. You call the BR out, which I agree with. You nullify the run. If you would allow all of this to occur then you have done exactly what I said, except you didn't call the BR back into the box.

I don't allow the pitch to be thrown. I declare "Play", wait a couple of beats (or 10) without ever getting set or maybe without even being behind F2 (so F1 is not tempted), declare "BR out for failure to advance. No runs score." Then, take the heat.

I agree the mechanics for declaring "Play" is not by the book, but I can't summon a new batter with an "active" BR, and I certainly can't summon the "active" BR into the batter's box, nor accept a pitch without a batter.

By declaring "Play", though, I at least give a couple of seconds for someone to get a clue and to start something (BR advancing, defense throwing to 1B, something...).

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I don't allow the pitch to be thrown. I declare "Play", wait a couple of beats (or 10) without ever getting set or maybe without even being behind F2 (so F1 is not tempted), declare "BR out for failure to advance. No runs score." Then, take the heat.

I agree the mechanics for declaring "Play" is not by the book, but I can't summon a new batter with an "active" BR, and I certainly can't summon the "active" BR into the batter's box, nor accept a pitch without a batter.

By declaring "Play", though, I at least give a couple of seconds for someone to get a clue and to start something (BR advancing, defense throwing to 1B, something...).

By rule you have to wait 20 seconds before the next pitch. However, the 10 second time for the batter to get into the box will expire first, so you'll never get to the 20 seconds. And by rule you would have to get to the 20 to call the BR out for failing to advance by the time of the next pitch. So now you have strike 4 on the batter.

No one seems to have an answer that is perfect by the book. Calling an active BR into the box is no more egregious in my mind than making the ball live with the BR out of the box. You can't get a pitch without a batter. You can't call the on deck batter into the box because you still have active BR whose status has yet to be determined.

Steve's solution, although not purely by the book, probably makes the best sense. And there is a similar, although not perfectly analogous play, to back up his position. However, I like anouncing the count a couple of times and then if nothing is done, then declare the BR out. It's the umpires mistake that caused this situation. Give the teams a chance to sort it out.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Here's my opinion; probably no better than anyone else's.

I don't believe any brand would want, desire, or allow the farce of making the ball live again, without a batter, to complete a play that was incomplete. The PU erred by calling time; now rule on the result of the play that was negated.

I am willing to bet the official NFHS ruling is to simply declare the out. That is consistent with the case play ruling that during live play, if two runners are standing on the same base, and the defense refuses to make a play, that you simply declare an out. There is no exact rules basis for that, either (since the remedy in the rules is that the defense must tag the trail runner); but, it is, at least in my mind consistent. It would appear that the NFHS remedy for the offense failing to advance or return when necessary to continue play is to simply declare the out.

ASA is a bit more complicated; in the live play situation, as an umpire you must simply wait and force the defense to make a play, because 1) the ball is live, 2) you cannot have a next pitch with two runners on a base, 3) the runners cannot legally leave the base without violating the lookback rule, ergo, 4) the defense must go get the out.

And, if our PU had his head in the game, that is what would happen here; time never granted, so make someone do something. No abandonment in live ball territory, but we cannot have a next pitch (or the time of a next pitch). However, the ASA 10.3-c grants an added authority, to rectify any situation where a delay in making a call puts a team in jeopardy.

In my judgment, once the PU called time, and the BR did not complete running responsibilities, the team placed in the greater jeopardy by not ruling on the live play still unresolved is the defense. It is apparent to me, at least, that once the count is announced, repeated, whatever needed to wake them up, that the defense had a greater opportunity to get the out to retire the BR than the offense had to safely advance; and it could be argued that the offense failed to advance, and that calling time is what cost the defense the opportunity to make the out.

So, in ASA, absent a specific ruling to the contrary from the NUS, I would rule under 10.3-c that the BR is out; and no run can score.