FED question...

[CajunNewBlue]

ok, had a situation this past weekend... we are playing FED with catholic league rule modifications (nothing that effects the play im about to describe)

passed ball for a dropped third strike.. BR breaks for first. catcher is fielding/chasing down ball on first base side.... throw comes from foul side and F3 is leaning out and across the base toward foul territory (her foot is on the second base side of first) so essentially she is committing OBS... except, runner never slows down or changes direction, as she started to run in fair territory. and she is promptly pegged in the back by the throw 10' from first while completely out of the running lane.
called her out for INT... but dangit, it didnt seem right.

Coach did ask me where was his runner suppose to go?.... i told him to shut the H*ll up and go back to his bucket before i was forced to smack him him in his whiney mouth. (ok, i didnt ) I told him she had to run in the 3' lane and let me deal with the OBS if it happens.

Question is ... is there an exception to the 3' running lane requirement?... and if there is, where is it? because i cant find it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

ok, had a situation this past weekend... we are playing FED with catholic league rule modifications (nothing that effects the play im about to describe)

passed ball for a dropped third strike.. BR breaks for first. catcher is fielding/chasing down ball on first base side.... throw comes from foul side and F3 is leaning out and across the base toward foul territory (her foot is on the second base side of first) so essentially she is committing OBS... except, runner never slows down or changes direction, as she started to run in fair territory. and she is promptly pegged in the back by the throw 10' from first while completely out of the running lane.
called her out for INT... but dangit, it didnt seem right.

Coach did ask me where was his runner suppose to go?.... i told him to shut the H*ll up and go back to his bucket before i was forced to smack him him in his whiney mouth. (ok, i didnt ) I told him she had to run in the 3' lane and let me deal with the OBS if it happens.

Question is ... is there an exception to the 3' running lane requirement?... and if there is, where is it? because i cant find it.

Don't know how far NFHS goes with rules for the double base other than recognizing it's existence.

That said, ASA addresses this situation in 8.2.E. On a throw/play coming from the foul side of the baseline, the BR may use either portion of the base. In doing so, may run to the fair side of the baseline without risking being ruled out for interference lacking intent.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I'm new at the NFHS thing - just took the apprentice exam this past weekend. I know ASA allows for the runner to run inside the line on plays being made from foul territory. I can't find a reference for a similar exception on the NFHS side. [And they don't do PDFs for their rules and case books making lookups more difficult.]

My visual of your situation is that F3 is standing on the white portion and reaching across the colored base to take the throw. If that's true, she probably should have been on the colored portion of the base and reaching out into foul territory for the throw. This could alert the BR as to where the throw is coming from and which base to run to. I think I would have had OBS in this case. Sounds very similar to one of the questions we had on the test.

The dropped third strike is always a bit tricky for the BR because they might not know from which angle the catcher will attempt to make the throw. F2 might run inside the diamond or opt to move to foul territory.

Ted

Here's what I found:

ASA

E. When the batter-runner runs outside the three-foot lane and, in the umpire’s
judgment, interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base; however,
the batter-runner may run outside the three-foot lane to avoid a fielder attempting
to field a batted ball. When the defensive player uses the colored
portion of the double base, the batter-runner can run in fair territory when the
throw is coming from the foul side of first base, and if hit by the thrown ball,
it is not interference. If intentional interference is ruled, the runner is out.

NFHS BR is out when

8-2-5… She runs outside the three-foot lane and, in the judgment of the umpire, interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base (there must be a throw); however, the BR may run outside the three-foot lane to avoid a fielder attempting to field a batted ball. A runner is considered outside the running lane if either foot is completely outside the lane and in contact with the ground.

[MGKBLUE]

NFHS has a similar rule to ASA when a throw is going to first base from the foul side of first base, but only when a double base is being used at first base. Refer to NFHS rule 8-10-2 a and c.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I

The dropped third strike is always a bit tricky for the BR because they might not know from which angle the catcher will attempt to make the throw. F2 might run inside the diamond or opt to move to foul territory.

That is why it is an option, not mandated, and there are coaches to instruct the BR.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Thanx MGKBLUE. From the original post, I'm now even more inclined to rule OBS.

NFHS

10-2-c. When the defensive player uses the colored portion of the couble base, the BR can run in fair territory when the throw is coming from the foul side of first base, and if hit by the thrown ball, it is not interference. If intentional interference is ruled, the runner is out.

Ted

[CajunNewBlue]

no double bases... single base. (sorry, should have mentioned this in the op)

[AtlUmpSteve]

Let's also keep in mind that the running line violation is a form of interference; and that trumps the possible (OP stated did not slow down, didn't change direction, so how was she hindered??) obstruction by F3.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

no double bases... single base. (sorry, should have mentioned this in the op)

Ya' think?

Well, by rule, you may have made the correct call based on one thing. Did F3 have a chance of catching the throw to put out the BR or was it just a wild throw or, maybe, an intentional throw at the BR? I would like to think the latter would not happen, but nowadays, who knows.

It is quite possible that the BR's move to the inside was a direct reaction to how she has been taught to do it when playing on a travel ball team away from this league.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Let's also keep in mind that the running line violation is a form of interference; and that trumps the possible (OP stated did not slow down, didn't change direction, so how was she hindered??) obstruction by F3.

Agreed...but i could see this becoming a problem if the catcher is beaning the runners intentionally, because I dont see how this would be possible to detect. and if its not ruled on... then coaches are going to be teaching or might already be teaching this ummm.. maneuver.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Ya' think?

Well, by rule, you may have made the correct call based on one thing. Did F3 have a chance of catching the throw to put out the BR or was it just a wild throw or, maybe, an intentional throw at the BR? I would like to think the latter would not happen, but nowadays, who knows.

It is quite possible that the BR's move to the inside was a direct reaction to how she has been taught to do it when playing on a travel ball team away from this league.

ohh it was the correct call... make no mistake!! j/k (she was 10' from the bag when pegged... im sure she woulda been hosed out had the INT not occurred ) but i just didnt like it and i thought maybe i needed to look for an exception. but couldnt find one.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

(she was 10' from the bag when pegged... im sure she woulda been hosed out had the INT not occurred ) .

This is where I am getting confused. When OP stated the catcher was chasing the ball down on the first base side, I'm envisioning a throw coming from a point away from the baseline. This is why I asked if F3 would have caught the ball 10' up the line to put out the BR.

Apparently, since you said the BR would have definitely been put out, the throw came from a point closer to the baseline than I imagined.

Okay, thanks.

[CajunNewBlue]

yeah sorry bout that... my post writing ability is, ummm..still being worked on.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Thanx MGKBLUE. From the original post, I'm now even more inclined to rule OBS.

NFHS
However, just about to point out "the defensive player uses the colored portion " in the rule, but now we know there was no colored portion.

Should I make that a new topic?
10-2-c. When the defensive player uses the colored portion of the couble base, the BR can run in fair territory when the throw is coming from the foul side of first base, and if hit by the thrown ball, it is not interference. If intentional interference is ruled, the runner is out.

Ted

However, just about to point out "the defensive player uses the colored portion " in the rule, but now we know there was no colored portion.

Should I make that a new topic?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Well, even without the double-base, I think F3 should be able to make a play by stepping on the foul side of the base. And, if the runner is running inside the line and gets hit with the throw, it's not INT.

Ted