Unreported Substitute

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA

Top of the 2nd, S1 is told by the coach to take a position in RF, but did not notify the umpire.

In the 4th inning, this player fields a fair batted ball and throws out the tying run at the plate. At this point, the opposing coach visits the PU and tells him that the RF is an unreported substitute.

What action should the umpire take?

Ronald, please sit this one out

[RKBUmp]

Dont have the 09 rule book yet, but if my understanding of the rule changes are correct, the offense has the option of taking the result of the play, or, the runners return to the last base occupied, batter returns to bat and assumes the same ball and strike count. Unreported sub is entered as long as they were eligable to enter the game.

[Skahtboi]

Also don't have the 2009 rulebook yet, but it sounds like RKB has the correct answer using the old rule with the known 2009 rule changes.

[SRW]

2009 ASA 4.6.C.8.

When on defense MAKES A PLAY and is protested:

a. BEFORE the next pitch, legal or illegal,
b. before the defense has left the field, and
c. before the umpires have left the field of play;

EFFECT: The unreported substitute is officially in the game and the offensive team has the option to:

a.Take the result of the play.
b.Have the last batter return to bat and assume the ball and strike count. All runners return to the last base occupied prior to the play.

[Skahtboi]

So, Mike, what's the catch????

[ronald]

Take Mike's play and add that in the fourth the coach does not do anything but in the seventh decides to make a protest after a defensive play by the unreported sub. Sorry Mike could not resist any more. Bored and ennui.

Any thing different?

I was at the clinic and there was some confusion about the wording of the new rule and its interpretation as to when an unreported sub is officially in the game.

Comments on that pt?

If you have the 2009 book and read the rule you might come up with some of the same thoughts they did at the clinic.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA

Top of the 2nd, S1 is told by the coach to take a position in RF, but did not notify the umpire.

In the 4th inning, this player fields a fair batted ball and throws out the tying run at the plate. At this point, the opposing coach visits the PU and tells him that the RF is an unreported substitute.

What action should the umpire take?

Ronald, please sit this one out

Here is the issue. Turn to ASA Rule 4.6.8 & 9.

S1 entered the game in the 2nd inning. In the 4th, the offense protested the Unreported Substitute prior to the next pitch after the player made a play.

In accordance to 4.6.8, this is a valid and the offense gets the option of the play or one of the two do-overs in the book.

The umpire agrees and gives the OC that option. Now, the DC is on the field and cites 4.6.9 as a reason the ruling is wrong. The coach reminds the umpire that the player entered the field and a pitch was thrown. Therefore, the protest was made AFTER a legal pitch made while in the field and should have been considered in the game at that point in time.

Ooops! Now, we all know what we have been doing, but that assumption has finally been challenged because of the recent rule changes and we have been reading that part of the book just a little closer.

Agreeing the wording needs improvement, the official ruling is that rule 4.6.9 should be enforced as if it read the same as 4.6.8 which includes the qualifier of MAKES A PLAY.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Okay, the wording could be better. But, the coach's argument is incorrect, despite his effort; as long as there has been no intervening pitch after an unreported sub makes a play, 4.6.8 applies, and 4.6.9 does not.

Again, the issue isn't when the player is in the game; the substitution rule says she is after taking a position and a pitch or play happens. Nothing anywhere says that makes her reported; and until she is reported or appealed (effectively being reported by the opposing team), she is still unreported.

To suggest she is not in the game would allow the starter to re-enter without being charged a re-entry. Obviously not; and for the starter to be out, someone else is obviously in. That person is a sub; but that doesn't make her reported if she isn't. She is officially in the game; and her status is unreported, still.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Okay, the wording could be better. But, the coach's argument is incorrect, despite his effort; as long as there has been no intervening pitch after an unreported sub makes a play, 4.6.8 applies, and 4.6.9 does not.

Why not? Are not all of the requirement met considering the present wording?

Is the player not in the game unreported? Has the protest not been made after the pitch, legal or illegal?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the official ruling, it is just that the rule does not, which will be changed.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Gee, you might think this was some kind of SAT or IQ test instead of a simple umpire test [scenario].

I was chastised for reading too much into the question on the construction of the official bat.

We can't choose which rules to interpret literally while ignoring others. That's why the language of the rule book and the test questions is so important. With 40k umpires to maintain, the one common and critical factor is language.

The agrument that "everyone knows what was meant" simply doesn't fly. Best example is the rule change for the fast and modified pitch game where a ball is called on the batter instead of an illegal pitch, because it "was an illegal pitch and were always intended to be a ball on the batter only." So if I had called that play in the last of the seventh inning and allowed the winning run to score from 3rd base as an illegal pitch, and it was protested by the losing team, how would the ruling come out? Like it's written or how it was intended?

Ted

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

The agrument that "everyone knows what was meant" simply doesn't fly. Best example is the rule change for the fast and modified pitch game where a ball is called on the batter instead of an illegal pitch, because it "was an illegal pitch and were always intended to be a ball on the batter only." So if I had called that play in the last of the seventh inning and allowed the winning run to score from 3rd base as an illegal pitch, and it was protested by the losing team, how would the ruling come out? Like it's written or how it was intended?

Ted

Don't know, Ted. How many times did you allow a BR advance to 1B on a D3K with two outs and no one on 1B? Until a couple years ago, the rule book did not support such a thing.

How many times have you seen an umpire not call a batter out on a ball not above the batter's head and caught in flight that wasn't a foul tip?

There is an entire section in the ASA rule book titled, "TOUCHING BASES IN LEGAL ORDER", yet there is no mention in the rules what that order is.

In Rule 5, to score a run, a player must touch first, second, third and home base. Nowhere does it state in which order they must be touched. If a BR hit the ball to the gap and touched home, second, third and then first would you score the run? The player completed the task required in accordance to what is written in the rules, so would it be overturned upon protest if you scored the run?

If you think my examples are ridiculous, I agree.

Not everything can be reduced to print. Yes, some things get missed or all possible scenarios cannot be noted. Also, because the rules are so intertwined, some possible issues are missed when a change is made in one part of the book that affects another. That is why we have clinics and rules clarifications.

That is why the discussions on boards like this can be so educational. There have been rule changes proposed and some accepted that came directly from this or a similar discussion board.