Catcher not returning ball to pitcher

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

The batter is supposed to keep one foot in the batter's box between pitches, with a few exceptions. Losing track of the count is not an exception. On a 2-1 count, if the runner takes off for 1B on strike 2 (swinging on pitch in dirt), thinking it is a D3K, I have strike 3 and batter is out.

No you don't. Batter swung at the pitch. That's an exception to leaving the batter's box.
ASA 7.3(C-2)

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by SRW

No you don't. Batter swung at the pitch. That's an exception to leaving the batter's box.
ASA 7.3(C-2)

Who cares...this is OOO at it's best. In this situation, just let it go was my point

[DaveASA/FED]

SRW you are right, but if the count was 2-2 at the TOP and they run to first without swinging (say guy has low zone and a crappy catcher) if they leave box on that one thinking it is a d3k we could call them for violation and get strike 3.

Again not saying I'd do it, just like I might forget to call a ball if the F2 throws cause the batter takes off

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Who cares...this is OOO at it's best. In this situation, just let it go was my point

Too bad your point was in error. If you make a point, use a correct rule scenario.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

SRW you are right, but if the count was 2-2 at the TOP and they run to first without swinging (say guy has low zone and a crappy catcher) if they leave box on that one thinking it is a d3k we could call them for violation and get strike 3.

Again not saying I'd do it, just like I might forget to call a ball if the F2 throws cause the batter takes off

Nope. Wild pitch or passed ball is an exception as well.
ASA 7.3(C-4)

Besides, the strike call isn't an automatic call. You have the ability to warn the batter as many times as you feel necessary.

Perhaps you guys should grab your rule book and re-read this section. It doesn't sound like you fully grasp this rule and all the exceptions of when a batter can and can not leave the box.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by SRW

Perhaps you guys should grab your rule book and re-read this section. It doesn't sound like you fully grasp this rule and all the exceptions of when a batter can and can not leave the box.

Trust me I have reread this portion and SEVERAL others several times in response to this post, more than probably any other I have resonded in the years I have been on this site!! And I am still confused!

If you reread my post I did not say it was a passed ball, or a wild pitch, I said it was a low pitch and there was a history of a low strike zone and a bad catcher. So the exception you listed would not apply. Also if you reread somewhere in the pages of this post I am not advocating calling a strike and I did mention that a warning is possible in this case, so I do think I have an understand of this rule. However, I guess getting down to it I agree with the original post question....it does not seem fair to me that we give the ability to warn the batter for leaving the box( a delay of the game), even give them 8 exceptions when they can leave the box...but we nail the catcher that throws when the batter is running down to first for no apparent reason cause they should know the count and not react to the offense....maybe it's the rules but it don't seem right!

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by SRW

Too bad your point was in error. If you make a point, use a correct rule scenario.

sure my point was in error I admit that, my bad. Still my point is this is a BS call to make with the 3-1 count scenario given. Make it if you want go ahead. But if your partner in the same game starts calling time to make girls tuck in uniforms and other meaningless calls that are in the rule book don't criticize him and say he is an OOO, because you are as well.

That is all.

[Tru_in_Blu]

In one of the earlier posts on this subject there was a situation mentioned where the throw back to the pitcher might not have been caught.

In a situation with no runners on base, and a count of 2-x on the batter, the pitcher throws a pitch she felt was a strike, but called a ball by the PU. She reacts by throwing her arms in the air and spinning quickly to face the outfield. As the catcher is in the midst of a return throw to the pitcher, she realizes the pitcher isn't looking at her and attempts to abort the throw, but it comes out of her had and results in a bouncing ball to F5 or F6.

"Technically" does anyone call an additional ball on the batter? I would not in this case.

Men's modified league with many amendments to ASA rules. Catcher in the first inning on the first batter throws the ball to F5 after ball 2 on the batter.

"Technically" you could call another ball on the batter. My path was to call timeout, and inform both coaches that the ball needs to go directly back to the pitcher. So each side essentially has a warning.

Sometimes "technically" can result in problems w/ game management.

Ted

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

In one of the earlier posts on this subject there was a situation mentioned where the throw back to the pitcher might not have been caught.

In a situation with no runners on base, and a count of 2-x on the batter, the pitcher throws a pitch she felt was a strike, but called a ball by the PU. She reacts by throwing her arms in the air and spinning quickly to face the outfield. As the catcher is in the midst of a return throw to the pitcher, she realizes the pitcher isn't looking at her and attempts to abort the throw, but it comes out of her had and results in a bouncing ball to F5 or F6.

"Technically" does anyone call an additional ball on the batter? I would not in this case.

Men's modified league with many amendments to ASA rules. Catcher in the first inning on the first batter throws the ball to F5 after ball 2 on the batter.

"Technically" you could call another ball on the batter. My path was to call timeout, and inform both coaches that the ball needs to go directly back to the pitcher. So each side essentially has a warning.

Sometimes "technically" can result in problems w/ game management.

Ted

If you're gonna hit them with a stick anyway, why not hit them with the stick provided in the rules. In your scenario, when the catcher throws it to F5 on Ball 2, I've got another ball on the batter. IMHO, THAT sounds a bigger, better warning than a warning to both coaches.

[Tru_in_Blu]

But John, I didn't hit them with a stick. It was still firmly secured in my utility belt.

Some of these older guys tend to forget sometimes, or they just might be testing the umpire. Most of these games I do are one umpire games until playoffs.

Guess I'm not as quick on the stick as you are. Just trying to avoid a bit of animosity with the teams. Usually we work double-headers with that particular crowd, only 4 team-league, so things do tend to become somewhat intimate at times.

Ted

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

In one of the earlier posts on this subject there was a situation mentioned where the throw back to the pitcher might not have been caught.

In a situation with no runners on base, and a count of 2-x on the batter, the pitcher throws a pitch she felt was a strike, but called a ball by the PU. She reacts by throwing her arms in the air and spinning quickly to face the outfield. As the catcher is in the midst of a return throw to the pitcher, she realizes the pitcher isn't looking at her and attempts to abort the throw, but it comes out of her had and results in a bouncing ball to F5 or F6.

"Technically" does anyone call an additional ball on the batter? I would not in this case.

Men's modified league with many amendments to ASA rules. Catcher in the first inning on the first batter throws the ball to F5 after ball 2 on the batter.

"Technically" you could call another ball on the batter. My path was to call timeout, and inform both coaches that the ball needs to go directly back to the pitcher. So each side essentially has a warning.

Sometimes "technically" can result in problems w/ game management.

Ted

Ted,
League play, early in the year - yeah, maybe. Generally though, somebody else has "warned" them and they choose to ignore. Grab your stick, whip it out and bang 'em - they'll get it then. Warnings do not usually work.

Your pitcher in the girl's game needs to be dealt with, but I agree with you in not calling a ball due to the catcher's bad throw. Especially since you should now be using the catcher to go tell the pitcher to knock off the hysterical garbage.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

In one of the earlier posts on this subject there was a situation mentioned where the throw back to the pitcher might not have been caught.

In a situation with no runners on base, and a count of 2-x on the batter, the pitcher throws a pitch she felt was a strike, but called a ball by the PU. She reacts by throwing her arms in the air and spinning quickly to face the outfield. As the catcher is in the midst of a return throw to the pitcher, she realizes the pitcher isn't looking at her and attempts to abort the throw, but it comes out of her had and results in a bouncing ball to F5 or F6.

"Technically" does anyone call an additional ball on the batter? I would not in this case.

Men's modified league with many amendments to ASA rules. Catcher in the first inning on the first batter throws the ball to F5 after ball 2 on the batter.

"Technically" you could call another ball on the batter. My path was to call timeout, and inform both coaches that the ball needs to go directly back to the pitcher. So each side essentially has a warning.

Sometimes "technically" can result in problems w/ game management.

Ted

In your first situation, I would be tempted to let the pitcher watch the rest of the game from the dugout. At the very least, the coach would be warned that any further antics of that type will earn her a game long trip to the bench. Would I call another ball on the batter? No. The catcher was attempting to return the ball to the pitcher.

In your second situation, I agree with the others that you should use the rules as the warning. Go ahead and call the "penalty" ball on the batter. I think both coaches would understand that warning much better than a verbal one by you.

Sadly, more so with adults than with the kids, the animosity already exists between the players and uniform in many cases. It is just looking for the chance to reveal itself. Not enforcing the rules, if they know what the rule is, is one of those situations that will bring that animosity to the surface quicker than the Flash with diarrhea.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Hey Scott,

Thanx for your [and other's] inputs. Since these were hypothetical situations, many of which we might actually see in games we've done or will do, it's nice to get some different points of view.

And since the pitcher's reaction wasn't fully described and it might have been a "had to be there" to judge situation, I'm not so sure I'd be advocating an ejection for those actions. A lot of things could come in to play here. I described no verbal outburst, or any projected ill will to the umpire. Could be the pitcher was struggling and frustrated with her performance to that point. I've seen players kick their gloves after booting a ground ball or cuss after dropping a popup. I don't view those as ejectionable [a word?] actions. And I'm pretty sure a coach would not be happy in such a situation, either. And, yes, I know...it's not our job to make a coach happy. I've been player, coach, league official, and now umpire, so I have the view from several perspectives.

Most of the games I do are in leagues where I'll see the players week after week. As umpires, we tend to know the players with a short fuse, or the baiters, or the whiners. And the players get to know the umpires. There've been a couple of times I worked a game with a partner who seems to show up to the game angry and with a need to be in full control. Sometimes, bringing the teams in from BP or infield practice results in some angry words. I'm embarassed for his actions and I certainly don't model my game management after his.

So when I arrive at a game, especially with teams I've worked with a lot, I'm hoping they're thinking that they're glad I'm there because of how I call a game and how I treat them. Yeah, sometimes it might get a little heated, but with me, it's never personal. I don't hold a grudge, I don't do make-up calls, and I try to make each call to the best of my ability. I've blown a few calls along the way, but I also occasionally hear after a game "good call blue, you got it right even if we did give you a ration of **** about it during the game."

Ted

[AtlUmpSteve]

Ted, I respect what you are saying. No need to look for issues that don't need to be issues.

But, I disagree with giving a warning for a clear rule violation with a clearly stated penalty; particularly in a men's modified league. That is a breed of game where firmly enforcing the rules is a necessary part of displaying game management, in my experience.