Catcher not returning ball to pitcher

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I'm pretty sure its "cuz."

I think this answer still applies.

[Dholloway1962]

Seems like 4-5 years ago a question about this was on the ASA test. If I remember it was something like: Count 2-1 on B1. Wild pitch bounces off the catcher and bounds towards 3B dugout. Catcher retrieves the ball and tosses it to F5 who is standing nearby. F5 returns the ball to F1 in the circle. The right answer was award Ball 4 to B1. I missed it and that's how I learned that rule.

I would personally never call that situation a ball OOO if you ask me. I have however called a ball on the situation in the OP.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Let me try to answer the reason for the rule.

When I started as an umpire in the early 70's, almost every men's fastpitch catcher in the leagues I called threw the ball to someone other than the pitcher. Every pitch. Ball or strike, or foul, the catcher threw to the third baseman, or the first baseman, or even the shortstop. That player then walked part way to the circle, made some comment to the pitcher, then flipped him the ball. I asked them why; they said it "kept them in the game". Every pitch, every time. Not making a play, just tossing the ball around.

It also kept all of us in the game, a lot longer than we needed to be; it wasted an awful lot of time. When I started calling ASA in the mid-80's, I was happy to see that this was penalized. Don't know when, but I would bet the rule was put in place to keep the game moving, and end that useless practice (like NFHS stopping on-field huddles).

The offense attempting to twist the rule and take off on ball 3 or dropped strike 2 is a more recent issue, so far as I know. It hasn't reached the epidemic point to cause the rules to penalize it; and the solution for the defense is actually quite simple. They just need to pay attention, know the count, and only react when necessary. The best defense is to throw out the advancing lead runner; they get the out and the batter back in the box!!

Is that 'cuz?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

Why not ask the ASA home office?

Bob

Why should the ASA National Office answer a local rule question that didn't have the respect to follow the local chain of command? Assuming he is /you are registered with ASA, you have a local UIC, probably a district UIC, possibly a Zone UIC, assuredly a State (or Metro) UIC, and a Regional UIC.

If you haven't worked the process, the National Office should simply refer you back there. If none of that chain can answer the question, they can refer to the NUS for an answer.

Pretty sure that asking the White House to explain your Social Security benefits will get you referred to the Social Security Administration, at your most local level.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by topper

Whatever.

Let's start over.

Why would any code punish the defense and not the offense for a similar act such as this.

F2 not returning the ball to F1 is punished for delaying the game and a ball is awarded the batter. A similiar act by the offense could be a batter not entering the batter's box in the allowed time and the strike being added to the count as punishment.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by topper

Why would any code punish the defense and not the offense for a similar act such as this.

Obviously the acts you are trying to compare are not so similiar. If they were, they would be "punished" in similiar manners, as you are inferring. Perhaps you should re-think your question based on this, and what others have already posted.

[topper]

Originally Posted by SRW

Obviously the acts you are trying to compare are not so similiar. If they were, they would be "punished" in similiar manners, as you are inferring. Perhaps you should re-think your question based on this, and what others have already posted.

Thanks AtlUmpSteve for answering my 1st question.

It's not that obvious that, setting Steve's situation aside, 2 players inadvertently losing the count and delaying the game is not similar. It seems that there is more onus placed on the defense to keep track of the count than the offense. JMO

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by topper

...It seems that there is more onus placed on the defense to keep track of the count than the offense. JMO

Absolutely that is true. Is it "fair"? BFOM, but it is the rule.

3-1 count, no outs, bases empty. Pitch is low, batter swings and misses, F2 controls the ball after it hits the dirt. Batter takes off for 1B as if it was a dropped 3K. F2 throws to F3.

Ball 4?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Absolutely that is true. Is it "fair"? BFOM, but it is the rule.

1-3 count, no outs, bases empty. Pitch is low, batter swings and misses, F2 controls the ball after it hits the dirt. Batter takes off for 1B as if it was a dropped 3K. F2 throws to F3.

Ball 4?

I don't recall ever having a "1-3" count in my life!!!

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

I don't recall ever having a "1-3" count in my life!!!

Bla... 3-1.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Bla... 3-1.

Have you gotten in the habit of holdiing your indicator backwards or something?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Have you gotten in the habit of holdiing your indicator backwards or something?

Nah, just fiddling with the count to get the sitch right, and goofed it up... but what about the question... is it ball 4?

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Nah, just fiddling with the count to get the sitch right, and goofed it up... but what about the question... is it ball 4?

Yes.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Nah, just fiddling with the count to get the sitch right, and goofed it up... but what about the question... is it ball 4?

Technically, yes. But your point about the catcher doing what she thinks she is supposed to do (and is entitled to if it were ball 4 initially) in these cases is well taken. As we always maintain here, though, it is the job of both teams to know the count and game situations at all times.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Technically, yes. But your point about the catcher doing what she thinks she is supposed to do (and is entitled to if it were ball 4 initially) in these cases is well taken. As we always maintain here, though, it is the job of both teams to know the count and game situations at all times.

What does "technically, yes" mean? If I'm behind the plate and you're out on the bases and I call this, are you planning on rolling your eyes or saying to yourself he knows his stuff.
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