Fair/foul call

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I used to be.

Damn! I called that one! Must take one to know one.

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I would have used any of the cites in 1.Foul Ball, but none of them seemed to apply to the situation. The closes was the inverse of 1.Fair Ball.F.

Again, that's my problem with the wording. I realize this has probably a one in a million chance of happening, but when it does happen, we want some clarity. A diagonal, in my opinion, is no good, as we have nothing on the field to reference one (what? we want more lines?!). I think what is INTENDED is for us to use the baselines, and that's what I'll call.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I think what is INTENDED is for us to use the baselines, and that's what I'll call.

You don't work NFHS fastpitch do you?

[IRISHMAFIA]

What is so hard about this? This is simple. The definitions note specifics that make a batted ball fair or foul.

It is not a matter that the batted ball meets an event-specific definition. The point is the batted ball does NOT meet the definition of a fair ball, therefore cannot be a fair ball.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

You don't work NFHS fastpitch do you?

Nope! ASA SP only.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What is so hard about this? This is simple. The definitions note specifics that make a batted ball fair or foul.

It is not a matter that the batted ball meets an event-specific definition. The point is the batted ball does NOT meet the definition of a fair ball, therefore cannot be a fair ball.

The only thing "hard" about this is the fact that it's just one of those things that's understood as simple common sense, but I can picture some nutball coach trying and (cringe... possibly even successfully) arguing that this is a fair ball. Maybe they're used to NFHS. Maybe they're used to some 65' (or whatever your base distance is) arch across the field. Maybe they're used to space aliens with IR looking over the field. Who knows?

We know what the call is. The point is: how?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

We know what the call is. The point is: how?

How? I just told you how. The batted ball does not meet the definition of a fair ball. Okay, if it isn't a fair ball, what else can it be?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How? I just told you how. The batted ball does not meet the definition of a fair ball. Okay, if it isn't a fair ball, what else can it be?

My point is... "Beyond" what? If it stops a few feet shy of 2B, which is 91' 11" on a 65' base field, then rolls into foul territory on the HP side of 1B or 3B, one may argue that it went almost 25' beyond 1B or 3B.

Note I said "argue" and not "reason."

Can we enforce an un-rule?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

NFHS 2.20.1.f
A fair ball is a batted ball that:
first falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first or third base.

ASA 1.Fair Ball.F
A legally batted ball that:
First falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first, second or third base.



Our NFHS State UIC has told us (me directly) that the NFHS ruling for a batted ball that first lands beyond a direct line from 1B to 3B is a fair ball, since the NFHS definition does not include 2B and ASA's definition does include 2B.

That is the closest to a ruling that I can find.

This may just be muddying the waters further, but I believe that NFHS interpretation is for baseball. No definitive source, I just seem to recall reading that somewhere.

I understand that the two rules (ASA and NFHS) are worded differently, but personally, I have never heard of a different interp for NFHS. I don't think that this is one of the things covered in the rules differences document, either.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

My point is... "Beyond" what? If it stops a few feet shy of 2B, which is 91' 11" on a 65' base field, then rolls into foul territory on the HP side of 1B or 3B, one may argue that it went almost 25' beyond 1B or 3B.

Note I said "argue" and not "reason."

Can we enforce an un-rule?

One may argue that stealing is only allowed during a full moon. Doesn't mean I'm going to stand there and listen to it.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by Andy

I understand that the two rules (ASA and NFHS) are worded differently, but personally, I have never heard of a different interp for NFHS. I don't think that this is one of the things covered in the rules differences document, either.

I raised this issue with a former member of the NFHS committee. His personal interpretation was to go with the "triangle" view, but he said that he would check with Indy. Today the following came back:

The NFHS says their interpretation would be the same as the NCAA and ASA interpretation, making it a foul ball. They will work on better language for the “beyond first and third” parts of the foul and fair definitions.

WMB

[Tex]

Foul ball in both ASA and NFHS. Ball did not touch or go past 1st base. Simple as that. Don't understand the confusion. The ball can touch in right field, spin back toward 1st base, and go over the foul line between home and 1st base. All of this without being touched. The result is a foul ball.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Tex

Foul ball in both ASA and NFHS. Ball did not go past 1st base. Simple as that. Don't understand the confusion.

The confusion is simple it's unclear from the rulebook itself what the definition of past first base is. Does a ball which hits second pass 1st base? That depends on which direction you're facing. [Yes, I know it's fair anyway.]
________
Switzel live

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Tex

The ball can touch in right field, spin back toward 1st base, and go over the foul line between home and 1st base. All of this without being touched. The result is a foul ball.

This is not true. If the ball first lands beyond first base, and subsequently rolls untouched into foul territory, it will be a fair ball.

[wadeintothem]

Holy "way-to-complicate-something-very-simple, batman."

In ASA and NFHS (and likely every other league, including the yemini slayer of the infidel softball federation) I have a foul ball. The rules are the same. If some individual state rule interpreter is messing up the rule for NFHS in your state, thats for your state only.

This is a foul ball. Simple.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Holy "way-to-complicate-something-very-simple, batman."

In ASA and NFHS (and likely every other league, including the yemini slayer of the infidel softball federation) I have a foul ball. The rules are the same. If some individual state rule interpreter is messing up the rule for NFHS in your state, thats for your state only.

Apparently not since more than one person, not from the same state has received the same interp. And, BTW, I first heard it in a clinic well more than a dozen years ago.