Does the run score?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

SRW:

I have a few questions:


1) Was B4 awarded first base when she drew the walk?

2) B4's walk forced R3, R2, and R1 to advance one base. Are these single base advances considered awarded bases?

3) If R3, R2, and R1's advancement of one base are considered awarded bases, then wouldn't R1's run score even if she touches home plate after R2 is tagged out?

MTD, Sr.

I don't have my case book handy, but there is a case play with this exact scenario and the run scores, because R1 was awarded home on the walk.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by rwest

I don't have my case book handy, but there is a case play with this exact scenario and the run scores, because R1 was awarded home on the walk.

There is an NFHS case play for this scenario, but I can't find an ASA one. Here is the NFHS case play:

8.1.1 SITUATION F: With two outs, the bases loaded and a three-and-two count on B6, the next pitch is a wild pitch. R1 begins advancing to home. R2, on second base, is off with the pitch. She rounds third base, but is caught off the base by an excellent throw by F2 for the third out. R1 had not touched home when R2 was tagged out at third. RULING: R1 was awarded home as soon as the fourth ball was declared. Consequently, as soon as R1 touches the plate, her run counts. (8-4-3a Effect)

In NFHS, the run scores.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

There is an NFHS case play for this scenario, but I can't find an ASA one. Here is the NFHS case play:In NFHS, the run scores.

Dakota, that's the one I was thinking of. I didn't make it clear, but I meant an NFHS case play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

There is an NFHS case play for this scenario, but I can't find an ASA one. Here is the NFHS case play:In NFHS, the run scores.

Just out of curiosity, does the NFHS rule state that the runner is actually awarding runners a base when another player is walked, or is it an assumption supported by the case play?

I don't care, just curious as to the wording.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Just out of curiosity, does the NFHS rule state that the runner is actually awarding runners a base when another player is walked, or is it an assumption supported by the case play?

I don't care, just curious as to the wording.

Its implied in the index. Under Awards it directs you to 2-63-1 and 2-63-2, which define Walk and Intentional Walk. And also in 8-4-3,it says "A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded first base".

I've yet to find where it says in black and white that a walk is an award. It is however heavily implied by the case play and rule book.

[Dakota]

Except for the implications above, the NFHS rule book does not directly say the OTHER runners forced to advance are awarded their bases. Heck, the NFHS book does not even call the base on balls itself an awarded base (again, except by inference as noted above). The NFHS Rule 8-1-1-c for fast pitch (fourth ball called by the umpire) only says the batter becomes a BR. It does not use the word "award" for fast pitch (it does for the intentional BOB for slow pitch).

[SRW]

We're not "awarding" R1, R2, or R3 anything... the only one we're "awarding" is the BR 1B. The others are forced to vacate, and are protected to the next base by rule.

I have a hard time in either rule set (even though NFHS specifically shows it via the case play) that the runners are "awarded" the next base.

i.e.: If we had a runner on 2B only, we don't "award" them the next base ... they're entitled to go there without liability "if forced."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

Its implied in the index. Under Awards it directs you to 2-63-1 and 2-63-2, which define Walk and Intentional Walk. And also in 8-4-3,it says "A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded first base".

I've yet to find where it says in black and white that a walk is an award. It is however heavily implied by the case play and rule book.

I understand a walk is an award to the batter, but not the runners. If it were, a lone runner on 3B would score on a walk or HBP, and we all know that isn't gonna happen

That's why I was curious of the wording.

For as much as I know, ASA may want the same ruling. My supposition is based upon the rules available.

[greymule]

"without liability to be put out" does not mean "without liability to be declared out"

NCAA uses similar language, so I would presume it also does not consider the entitlement to advance to be an award.

I think that runners are indeed "awarded" bases to which they are forced when the batter is awarded a base on balls.

Example in FP: R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. R2 runs on the 3-2 pitch, but R1 misses the sign and does not run. Ball 4 to batter. R2 rounds 2B and passes R1. R2 is declared out. R1, however, still goes to 3B even though she is no longer forced and the ball is live. Thus, this is an award.

Example in FP: Bases loaded, 1 out. Ball 4 to batter. Batter runs directly into the dugout and is declared out. The other 3 runners are no longer forced, but they still advance to the bases they were awarded.

I had an illustrative play a few years ago:

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, 1 out. B3 hits a liner down the LF line, not too deep. R1 takes a few steps toward home, and R2 tags at 2B. F7 makes a nice catch and quickly fires the ball to F5 in an attempt to get the returning R1. As R1 returns to 3B, he covers his head with his arms to defend himself from the hard throw. The throw gets away and goes into the dugout. I (BU) award both runners home. R2, seeing the ball go into DBT and unaware that R1 is still on 3B asking what happened, passes R1.

Both R1 and R2 were permitted to advance to home without liability to be put out. However, R2 was declared out for the third out, so R1 cannot score, even though he had been awarded home.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

"without liability to be put out" does not mean "without liability to be declared out"

Nor does it mean award

NCAA uses similar language, so I would presume it also does not consider the entitlement to advance to be an award.

I think that runners are indeed "awarded" bases to which they are forced when the batter is awarded a base on balls.

Example in FP: R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. R2 runs on the 3-2 pitch, but R1 misses the sign and does not run. Ball 4 to batter. R2 rounds 2B and passes R1. R2 is declared out. R1, however, still goes to 3B even though she is no longer forced and the ball is live. Thus, this is an award.

Example in FP: Bases loaded, 1 out. Ball 4 to batter. Batter runs directly into the dugout and is declared out. The other 3 runners are no longer forced, but they still advance to the bases they were awarded.

Or the rulings are based upon the order in which the different events (walk and then passing the runner).

I had an illustrative play a few years ago:

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, 1 out. B3 hits a liner down the LF line, not too deep. R1 takes a few steps toward home, and R2 tags at 2B. F7 makes a nice catch and quickly fires the ball to F5 in an attempt to get the returning R1. As R1 returns to 3B, he covers his head with his arms to defend himself from the hard throw. The throw gets away and goes into the dugout. I (BU) award both runners home. R2, seeing the ball go into DBT and unaware that R1 is still on 3B asking what happened, passes R1.

Both R1 and R2 were permitted to advance to home without liability to be put out. However, R2 was declared out for the third out, so R1 cannot score, even though he had been awarded home.

Why would you call a runner out for passing when the ball was dead?

[DNTXUM P]

NCAA:

Score the run.

6.1.2 2) With two outs, score any run
in which the runner is awarded home during a live ball but a trailing
runner is tagged out before touching home plate.
A.R. 6.1.2: Bases loaded, two outs, batter earns a base on balls. Runner from third dawdles on her way home while the runner from second aggressively advances to third, rounds the base and is tagged out. The out at third happens before the runner from third touches home. RULING: Score the run on the live-ball award.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DNTXUM P

NCAA:

Score the run.

6.1.2 2) With two outs, score any run
in which the runner is awarded home during a live ball but a trailing
runner is tagged out before touching home plate.

Nothing.

A.R. 6.1.2: Bases loaded, two outs, batter earns a base on balls. Runner from third dawdles on her way home while the runner from second aggressively advances to third, rounds the base and is tagged out. The out at third happens before the runner from third touches home. RULING: Score the run on the live-ball award.

That is what the discussion is about. The casebook plays and interpretations are applying protection designed for those runners who are "awarded" bases. My question would be where in the rule book does it state that all runners are awarded a base when the batter walks.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Just out of curiosity, does the NFHS rule state that the runner is actually awarding runners a base when another player is walked, or is it an assumption supported by the case play?

I don't care, just curious as to the wording.

I started to disagree with Mark on the NFHS board, absed on the wording of the rule, but discovered before I posted that the case play states the run scores.

The definition of a walk in NFHS 2-63-1 says the batter is awarded first. The baserunning rule 8-4-3(a) says that runners forced to advance as a result of the batter walking are "entitled to advance without liability to be put out". That stops short of making the advance bases awards; and since the ball is alive, I would argue that advances, even if entitled without jeopardy, are then timing plays.

But, MS says otherwise, and until or unless she changes the ruling or the wording of rule, they will continue to contradict.

NCAA uses similar language, so I would presume it also does not consider the entitlement to advance to be an award.