[ASA Co-Ed] Sub & Pitching Questions

[Stat-Man]

Stuff that came up from last night.

(1) Do subs have to return to the same spot in the batting order? We were batting a straight 10 (no EH's) and we had S11 come for B1. Later in the game, when we made a pitching change, the manager subbed B1 for B7. I didn't think it was legal, since I'm used to NFHS FP where starters must re-enter in their original spot. Of course, I'm still an ASA rule novice and didn't wanna be wrong either.

(2) If a team bats 12 (with 2 EH's) does the EH playing on defense for one of the original 10 count as a substitution. Our manager said he read the rules and that when the EH takes a field position, it counts as a sub and the original player has a re-entry. Personally, from what I read here, I thought having an EH playdefense was not a sub but a position change.

(3) In the game before ours, the pitcher was pitching so flat that he wasn't coming close to having 6' of arc in the first couple of innings. Is that supposed to be an illegal pitch? The umpire wasn't calling them illegal. (And I do seem to recall the IP penalty in SP is still a ball on the batter and runners getting the next base, unless the batter swings.)

Aside from that, it's been a fun season since we're in 2nd place right now and in good shape for the playoffs in a couple of weeks.

And don't worry, If I help this team out next year, I _will_ be getting an ASA rulebook for myself. I figure if I'm going to do this for 2 or more years, I may as well become as rule-knowledgeable on my own as possible. But thanks for helping me with the initial learning curve this summer.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Stuff that came up from last night.

(1) Do subs have to return to the same spot in the batting order? We were batting a straight 10 (no EH's) and we had S11 come for B1. Later in the game, when we made a pitching change, the manager subbed B1 for B7. I didn't think it was legal, since I'm used to NFHS FP where starters must re-enter in their original spot. Of course, I'm still an ASA rule novice and didn't wanna be wrong either.

Yes

(2) If a team bats 12 (with 2 EH's) does the EH playing on defense for one of the original 10 count as a substitution. Our manager said he read the rules and that when the EH takes a field position, it counts as a sub and the original player has a re-entry. Personally, from what I read here, I thought having an EH playdefense was not a sub but a position change.

No

(3) In the game before ours, the pitcher was pitching so flat that he wasn't coming close to having 6' of arc in the first couple of innings. Is that supposed to be an illegal pitch? The umpire wasn't calling them illegal. (And I do seem to recall the IP penalty in SP is still a ball on the batter and runners getting the next base, unless the batter swings.)

Ask the umpire, it's his judgment.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Stuff that came up from last night.

(1) Do subs have to return to the same spot in the batting order? We were batting a straight 10 (no EH's) and we had S11 come for B1. Later in the game, when we made a pitching change, the manager subbed B1 for B7. I didn't think it was legal, since I'm used to NFHS FP where starters must re-enter in their original spot. Of course, I'm still an ASA rule novice and didn't wanna be wrong either.

That wasn't legal. If a player is substituted for, they must re-enter the game in the exact same spot in the batting order. Defensive positions have no bearing in this matter.

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

(2) If a team bats 12 (with 2 EH's) does the EH playing on defense for one of the original 10 count as a substitution. Our manager said he read the rules and that when the EH takes a field position, it counts as a sub and the original player has a re-entry. Personally, from what I read here, I thought having an EH playdefense was not a sub but a position change.

For the record, it's an EP, not an EH. If you're batting 12 in co-ed (or 11 in women's or men's), any 10 of those 12 can play defense. Those are not considered substitutions. It doesn't even need to be reported, so long as the batting order remains unchanged.

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

(3) In the game before ours, the pitcher was pitching so flat that he wasn't coming close to having 6' of arc in the first couple of innings. Is that supposed to be an illegal pitch? The umpire wasn't calling them illegal. (And I do seem to recall the IP penalty in SP is still a ball on the batter and runners getting the next base, unless the batter swings.)

The pitch should reach a minimum of 6' off the ground, and should be a maximum of 12' off the ground. The judgment of the height is left completely to the plate umpire. 6' doesn't look like much from the other side of the fence, and I hear "flat, blue!" a lot. My response? "Buddy, I'm 6' tall, and I know what 6' looks like every time I wake up in the morning."

If the pitch is called illegal, a ball is awarded to the batter, unless the batter swings. The runners do not advance a base (that's a fast pitch rule). Nothing more. If it's ball 4, then a male batter is awarded 2B, and a female batter is awarded 1B.

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Aside from that, it's been a fun season since we're in 2nd place right now and in good shape for the playoffs in a couple of weeks.

And don't worry, If I help this team out next year, I _will_ be getting an ASA rulebook for myself. I figure if I'm going to do this for 2 or more years, I may as well become as rule-knowledgeable on my own as possible. But thanks for helping me with the initial learning curve this summer.

I'm glad you're having fun! Believe it or not, we're out there to have fun, and to see a good game, too. I'm glad to see someone take a deeper interest in how the game is really called.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yes

No

Ask the umpire, it's his judgment.

Mike, you're too quick for me!

[robbie]

To explain the "EP" situation. I often state that it is like a defensive player who happens to be sitting on the bench. I do anything to try to get coaches, et all from refering to "substituting" their EP for second base ( for example).

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I'm glad you're having fun! Believe it or not, we're out there to have fun, and to see a good game, too.

Not me...I'm there because I enjoy the power trip of ejecting players for no good reason (pointing his bat at the ground and screaming in my face about a strike call). I also enjoy when games go extra innings due to a close call I made because I'm obviously making overtime. That's why I umpire.

OK so I do actually enjoy myself out there, I even smiled once last night.

Stat-Man, have you considered donning the blue? You seem to have a good grasp of the rules.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

If the pitch is called illegal, a ball is awarded to the batter, unless the batter swings. The runners do not advance a base (that's a fast pitch rule). Nothing more. If it's ball 4, then a male batter is awarded 2B, and a female batter is awarded 1B.

The female batter has a choice to either bat or take 1st base. But this is only with 2 outs. The umpire does not automatically award the base.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by rwest

The female batter has a choice to either bat or take 1st base. But this is only with 2 outs. The umpire does not automatically award the base.

I wasn't referring to this situation, but I see how my words could have been unclear. I was referring to two different base on balls.

When a female batter is walked, she gets 1B. When a male batter is walked, he gets 2B. If there are two outs, and a male batter is walked (either intentionally or from 4 called balls), the female has the option to walk as well. If there are less than two outs, the female batter must bat.

Guess I said it too quickly.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I wasn't referring to this situation, but I see how my words could have been unclear. I was referring to two different base on balls.

When a female batter is walked, she gets 1B. When a male batter is walked, he gets 2B. If there are two outs, and a male batter is walked (either intentionally or from 4 called balls), the female has the option to walk as well. If there are less than two outs, the female batter must bat.

Guess I said it too quickly.

It makes sense when I read it as you meant it to be read!

[Stat-Man]

NCASA (and others who answered the rule questions):

I thought the sub rule was consistent with what I know from NFHS FP. Uusually, we're lucky to have 10 of our 12 show up for a game, so having 11 or 12 is almost a foreign situation for us.

And thanks for the clarification on the EP terminology. I'm not sure why our manager thinks putting an EP in the field is a sub, but just maybe I'll be able to educate him (if he's willing to listen).

Lastly, thanks for the information on flat pitches and the IP penalty. I realize that it's umpire judgement and that the stands isn't the best place to judge height, but the pitches didn't even seem to come up to the pitcher's neck, and he was a bit of a smaller, squat guy. However, our team can hit flat pitchers a lot better than pitches with a lot of arc, so this may be to our benefit when we play that team next week.

Welpe:

If I didn't like the scoring and statistical aspects of the game as much as I do, just _maybe_ I'd consider it, especially since I once had a CYO player's grandparent tell me I should consider officiating after I had to fill in when no officials showed up for our 6th grade boys game. Of course, if I wanted to call SP in my city, I'd be calling games involving people I know rather well -- such as the friends on this particular team whom I interact with on a regular basis outside of the team, or those I know who are on my church's city team in the men's division. I think that would be a touch too awkward

Also, to do what I do, I feel I need to be well-versed in the rules, so I try to have a decent grasp of them. That's why I've had quite a few questions this summer as I've shared my experiences. And if I haven't come out and said it before, I do appreciate all the feedback.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

And thanks for the clarification on the EP terminology. I'm not sure why our manager thinks putting an EP in the field is a sub, but just maybe I'll be able to educate him (if he's willing to listen).

It's actually a common mistake. I've had a lot of teams tell me they want to sub in an EP for a defensive player, and they think it's a substitution because two players are trading places on the bench. I don't think it's a misconception that will easily go away, as the EP has been around for years.

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Of course, if I wanted to call SP in my city, I'd be calling games involving people I know rather well -- such as the friends on this particular team whom I interact with on a regular basis outside of the team, or those I know who are on my church's city team in the men's division. I think that would be a touch too awkward

I'm glad you realize that personal contacts can be an issue when calling ball. I've seen umpires get a lot of unnecessary grief while calling the games of their former team. If you call long enough, you will inevitably get to know players, and some may even become friends. However, camaraderie can have negative effects, in particular when you have teams that are new and don't have a feel for the league yet. If they see an umpire socializing with players or coaches, they will automatically assume you're biased, and there's absolutely nothing you can do to shake that perception. Perception and integrity are all we have on the field, and they will make or break an umpire.

If you really want to call, perhaps there's a neighboring town that has leagues requiring umpires? Clean slates are actually much better than dealing with teams that know you from something outside of officiating.

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Also, to do what I do, I feel I need to be well-versed in the rules, so I try to have a decent grasp of them. That's why I've had quite a few questions this summer as I've shared my experiences. And if I haven't come out and said it before, I do appreciate all the feedback.

This is actually one of the best attitudes towards officiating an umpire can have. It's setting a goal of improvement, and recognizing that umpiring is a continual process of evaluating and reevaluating yourself as an umpire. It took me about 16 years to get where I am now, and I still have a lot of growing to do. We all do. Recognize that umpiring requires constant learning. It's a good attitude to have, and it will serve you well.

When you're welcome to officially join the ranks, let us know! We'll definitely be here.