Canada v. USA

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I think you are full of $hit, myself. I'm still looking for the robots and I have yet to end up out of position due to an ASA mechanic.

In 2 man,

WHen in B calling a DP, you should not be moving towards 1B while calling the out at 2B. Doing so can lead to missing dropped balls, out/safes quick calls, missing crash INT and other things.

You should be stationary and swiveling to 1B after the play completes at 2B.

Admit its a terrible mechanic.

If you've ever used that taught mechanic, you have been in wrong position for the call at 2B, because you should not be moving. That is absurd.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

In 2 man,

WHen in B calling a DP, you should not be moving towards 1B while calling the out at 2B. Doing so can lead to missing dropped balls, out/safes quick calls, missing crash INT and other things.

You should be stationary and swiveling to 1B after the play completes at 2B.

Admit its a terrible mechanic.

If you've ever used that taught mechanic, you have been in wrong position for the call at 2B, because you should not be moving. That is absurd.

Strangely, that "bad mechanic" is exactly what they taught us at the NUS this year.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Strangely, that "bad mechanic" is exactly what they taught us at the NUS this year.

Its ASA's taught mechanic and creates a set of moving bouncing eyeballs watching a play..

It goes against the human anatomy and the way our eyes work and why you will see more missed calls out/safes on that play than any other.

The only time its good is when its routine.

if anything messes up at 2B, the mechanic lacks.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Its ASA's taught mechanic and creates a set of moving bouncing eyeballs watching a play..

It goes against the human anatomy and the way our eyes work and why you will see more missed calls out/safes on that play than any other.

The only time its good is when its routine.

if anything messes up at 2B, the mechanic lacks.

Nothing's "routine" at the ol' ball field. Just when you think it will be, something goes wrong.

I agree that stationary calls are better.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Its ASA's taught mechanic and creates a set of moving bouncing eyeballs watching a play..

It goes against the human anatomy and the way our eyes work and why you will see more missed calls out/safes on that play than any other.

The only time its good is when its routine.

if anything messes up at 2B, the mechanic lacks.

Point one, no one said you couldn't voice your opinion. I just simply voiced mine of what I thought of yours.

Point two, there is no issue with STEPPING toward 1B while watching the play at 2B. Again, you are making an excuse for what you consider a poor mechanic that thousands routinely execute with no problem. And if you missed a dropped ball at 2B, YOU did not properly execute the mechanic of which you are speaking since that mechanic teaches the umpire to stay with the ball. The only way you miss a dropped ball is by failing to stay with the ball. I submit your issue isn't the mechanic.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Point one, no one said you couldn't voice your opinion. I just simply voiced mine of what I thought of yours.

Point two, there is no issue with STEPPING toward 1B while watching the play at 2B. Again, you are making an excuse for what you consider a poor mechanic that thousands routinely execute with no problem. And if you missed a dropped ball at 2B, YOU did not properly execute the mechanic of which you are speaking since that mechanic teaches the umpire to stay with the ball. The only way you miss a dropped ball is by failing to stay with the ball. I submit your issue isn't the mechanic.

Stepping towards 1B isn't so much the problem. It's when an umpire turns his/her body away from the ball and towards 1B prematurely. Now, the umpire is looking over their shoulder and may lose the focus on the play. This is not something that was emphasized at the NUS.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Point one, no one said you couldn't voice your opinion. I just simply voiced mine of what I thought of yours.

Point two, there is no issue with STEPPING toward 1B while watching the play at 2B. Again, you are making an excuse for what you consider a poor mechanic that thousands routinely execute with no problem. And if you missed a dropped ball at 2B, YOU did not properly execute the mechanic of which you are speaking since that mechanic teaches the umpire to stay with the ball. The only way you miss a dropped ball is by failing to stay with the ball. I submit your issue isn't the mechanic.

The only time it is routinely executed is when it is routine. WHen I am PU I watch very closely because this poor mechanic is a goof up waiting to happen. When I am BU, I already know to be careful with this poor mechanic so I dont make that error. ANd yes I have learned by experience what a horrible mechanic this is.

And you are full of it.. the mechanic is to be moving towards 1B with your head turned towards 2B and your hand up in the hammer saying "out" Your body is moving one way, your call is made looking over your shoulder.

If you dont do that, then you admit I am correct. Because that is exactly what is taught. It is impossible to "stay with the ball" with this mechanic.

[wadeintothem]

On plays at the plate.. Working inside the plate is terrible and you can easily be in the way... holding area up 3B like is ok on some plays and even necessary in 2man some times... both are inferier to 3Base line extended on plays involving extrabase hits where a swipe tag is probable.

[wadeintothem]

PU should rarely ever go into the diamond when covering 3B. It is better to make the call from outside the line. You can get a great 90 from there. There is no need to come in to get a backwards 90 to 3B. It is inferior on 90% of calls from there and no benefit is gained which would out way the fact your back is turned on most of the players and the field and where the ball is coming from.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

PU should rarely ever go into the diamond when covering 3B. It is better to make the call from outside the line. You can get a great 90 from there. There is no need to come in to get a backwards 90 to 3B. It is inferior on 90% of calls from there and no benefit is gained which would out way the fact your back is turned on most of the players and the field and where the ball is coming from.

The advantage of PU going inside the diamond on calls at 3B is that if the throw's off, you're now out of the way of a potential play at HP. Also, if the runner reacts quickly to the errant throw, they may continue stride and round 3B. You're now in a good position to take them to HP, out of the way of a throw, and it's a shorter distance to get a good 90 on a tag at HP.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

The advantage of PU going inside the diamond on calls at 3B is that if the throw's off, you're now out of the way of a potential play at HP. Also, if the runner reacts quickly to the errant throw, they may continue stride and round 3B. You're now in a good position to take them to HP, out of the way of a throw, and it's a shorter distance to get a good 90 on a tag at HP.

Youre not closer. How can you say youre closer? Are we measuring in in inches? There is no significant difference in distance.

You do make some valid points, although I dont think you are in the way of a rounding runner.

And does it out way the disadvantage of having a play develop behind you?

Outside the line it all developes in front of you. Inside the line you come up, tracking and turn following the play.

If you read it properly, you wont be there on a rounding play anyway, You dont need to be there. You need to be right there on a banger.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Youre not closer. How can you say youre closer? Are we measuring in in inches? There is no significant difference in distance.

You do make some valid points, although I dont think you are in the way of a rounding runner.

And does it out way the disadvantage of having a play develop behind you?

Outside the line it all developes in front of you. Inside the line you come up, tracking and turn following the play.

If you read it properly, you wont be there on a rounding play anyway, You dont need to be there. You need to be right there on a banger.

Let's say you get an errant throw to 3B, and the runner rounds the base. If you're inside the diamond, a 90 degree angle to the tag will probably put you in a line from HP to 2B. Continue that line. Staying inside will put you 2-3 feet closer to 3B than staying outside, especially if the runner hook-slides.

Yes, you won't have other plays in front of you, and that's a disadvantage. However, we're talking 2 umpire mechanics. The BU should be outside, keeping their responsibilities in front of them as well.

Inside-outside theory is just that - a theory. Built into the practice of that theory is the fact that you will often have runners at your back, but those runners should be covered by your partner. It's not perfect.

That's why it's a theory.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Let's say you get an errant throw to 3B, and the runner rounds the base. If you're inside the diamond, a 90 degree angle to the tag will probably put you in a line from HP to 2B. Continue that line. Staying inside will put you 2-3 feet closer to 3B than staying outside, especially if the runner hook-slides.

Yes, you won't have other plays in front of you, and that's a disadvantage. However, we're talking 2 umpire mechanics. The BU should be outside, keeping their responsibilities in front of them as well.

Inside-outside theory is just that - a theory. Built into the practice of that theory is the fact that you will often have runners at your back, but those runners should be covered by your partner. It's not perfect.

That's why it's a theory.

I dont think we are talking about the same positioning if PU is inline HP to 2B. I move a lot quicker than that. If I have a banger at 3 I am there, around 8 feet or so.

R1 @ 1B less than 2 outs, slow developing bunt, play is to 1B, you have play which is obviously developing at 3B. You can pause for the play at 1B pulled foot mumbo jumbo (another ASA flaw, this is not the priority the lead runner is), but you need to be moving up the line, the runner will be rounding by then. Now you have 2 seconds or so.

You should be right there when the play happens.

[scottk_61]

Originally Posted by NDblue

Didn't matter which catcher and even if the catcher were setting up for one down the pipe or to the outside, the PU was set up waaaaaaaaaaaaay inside on every left-handed batter.

Apparently we're not allowed to voice our opinions about Olympic bound umpires on this site without getting slammed.

I have kept quiet on this one, mainly because I didn't see enough of the game to really know what you guys were talking about. However,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, what I did see of the PU looked ok to me. Sure it wasn't enough of a view to see if their positioning really agreed with the best expert I know, ME .

Those who want to whine about ASA and their mechanics are not always wrong, Lord knows I have done enough of it over the years.
The difference with whining and working with it is that only the whiner feels better about it.
If you have an idea that things can improve, work with your UIC to get it to you Regional UIC and then the NUS.
I can say that I don't like some ASA mechanic techniques because I use them.
I can say that I don't like some ISF mechanics because I am an ISF umpire (number 119 on the US roster of ISF umpires), but I use them.

Some aspects of our umpire mechanics are indeed way to robotic for my personal taste but I have used them, WHY?
Well, I use them because I want to work Nationals, (37 in Modified, Slow and Fast) I use them because I wanted to become an ISF umpire, (accomplished in 2004).
If you have no goal, then work outside the system and you will get where you are.
If you are using the mechanics as an excuse for why you don't get a National assignment, well then that shows the real reason you whine.

As I have said, I have whined and I have bit**ed about some things, then I took the time to work with the NUS and others who had the ability to change things. I was heard on some things and changed my mind on some others and was disregarded on even other issues.

The point is I kept working at it.
Talk to Irish in privite and he will tell you he has heard from me in email and in person, gripes I have had.
The point is, the mechanics have been worked out with deliberate reason to fit a deliberate need for the general population of umpires. Some variation has always been allowed when legitimate need has been noted.

I personally could not spread as wide as the NUS wanted me to. I use a modified scissors stance to get low enough into the zones that as a 6'5" umpire is not always easy to do. When Merle worked with me, he asked why I did what I did, I told him and was able to show by game performance that my modification worked for me. I never heard him complain not one bit after that time. I had the same type of conversation with every UIC I had at Nationals, again with no beef at all.
Most of the old NUS and plenty of the present NUS have had the same converstion, with the same results.
Work with them and it will work out.
More than once, Henry used me as an example of a necessay modification of mechanics at national schools with no penalty to me or others.

I think your whining (and it is just that) is just a poor attempt to cover up your feelings of jealousy of inadequacy on your part.

So, put up or shut up I say.
Prove with diligent work that your ideas are correct with teamwork or be a stay at home umpire that won't go anywhere.

(BTW, that last paragraph is an exact quote that was given to me by Bernie when I was bit**ing at a national one time years ago.)

[kcg NC2Ablu]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Tow the line or get slammed.

So what....?

I think ASA has robotics, not mechanics, absurd uniform policies, and goofy thoughts on positioning which are rigid and cause poor positioning on many plays.

I've been slammed a 500 times by the company men for saying so.

no biggie.

When I'm on the field though, ASA writes the check and I perform my robotics nearly perfectly, study hard, and do what I'm told. They are the boss.

When I'm here, I'll say what I want. When the company men slam it, I dont pout.

I agree that asa has a robotic type set of how you can and cannot do things.... but none of those umpires were using an ASA mechanic in any of their out calls if anything they were closer to NCAA.

On another note... the plate umpire may have been further in the slot then most yet she is the one going to the olympics and has obviously proved her self recently enough to obtain ISF and be selected to go to bejing so she had a bad game.. and she was on TV ... which sucks for her bc were all here ripping her... I bet if half you people ripping her worked that game you would have been just as (fill in the blank with whatever bad you were going to say here)