Clarification on Obstruction

[BlitzkriegBob]

I have made many calls of obstruction this year, but never have had to award bases as a result of any obstruction. My question is in reference to what the determining point for the obstruction is: the point that the base runner has been hindered, or the point where the obstruction lies.

For example, a batter gets a hit to the outfield, and before they can reach first base, they realize F3 is standing inches off the second base side of first base. They slow down and alter their base path prior to reaching first base. Are they now protected between home and first, or are they protected between first and second?

This has been what I have seen the majority of the time, and at all three bases. If I had been forced to rule on this, I would have given the benefit of the doubt to the offense, and protected the runner between the two furthest bases, but I would like to hear what y'all think.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

I have made many calls of obstruction this year, but never have had to award bases as a result of any obstruction. My question is in reference to what the determining point for the obstruction is: the point that the base runner has been hindered, or the point where the obstruction lies.

For example, a batter gets a hit to the outfield, and before they can reach first base, they realize F3 is standing inches off the second base side of first base. They slow down and alter their base path prior to reaching first base. Are they now protected between home and first, or are they protected between first and second?

This has been what I have seen the majority of the time, and at all three bases. If I had been forced to rule on this, I would have given the benefit of the doubt to the offense, and protected the runner between the two furthest bases, but I would like to hear what y'all think.

Don't know that I have OBS in your situation until R1 has rounded 1B (how can BR be OBS before she even gets to the base when F3 is standing past the base?).

Anyway BR is protected between 1B and whatever base you think she would have made had there not been OBS. Strictly your judgement.

Now if you stick with the OBS before she got to 1B, then she is protected between HP and whatever base you think she would have made had there not been OBS.

Just my opinion

[DaveASA/FED]

Well I can see how OBS occurred, if she is planning on taking the corner and alters her path due to F3's position that is OBS. And it can very well happen prior to reaching first base. My judgement would tell me that she is protected at both! As you said give the benefit of the doubt to the offense. If she studder steps prior to first I am betting that she also was not in stride after first either, still OBS, so you would have OBS before first and after first. I think you could sell that to the defensive coach....leave off the part about prior to first in the discussion, just "coach in my judgement your F3 obstructed the runner at first so she is protected between 1st and 2nd so I am awarding her....." Can't argue judgement!!

[NCASAUmp]

Guys, I think you're reading too much into OBS than necessary. In its simplest form, OBS occurs when a fielder, who has no right to be where they are or doing what they're doing (in the case of a fake tag), impedes a runner's progress. That's it, nothing more.

The award is simple: award the runner the base they would have reached had there been no OBS. It does not matter if the OBS occurred before 1B or after 3B. It can occur at the plate. It can occur at 2B. It can even occur in the outfield.

There are, of course, certain stipulations that each rule org makes on top of the basic OBS call, and that's what we need to pay attention to (such as if there is OBS during a rundown, then they make a play on another runner, the protection is removed in ASA). However, I'd say about 85% of the OBS calls out there are your basic, garden variety OBS calls.

[BlitzkriegBob]

Dave,

I don't think I'm trying to read too much in to the rule. What if I have judged that the runner would only have reached first base, yet they make an attempt for second and get thrown out? If the OBS occurred before 1B, then the runner is out, but if the OBS occurred after 1B, then I would announce a dead ball and put the runner back on 1B. Big difference, wouldn't you agree?

[NCASAUmp]

I still think you're reading a little too much into it.

OBS at the base itself is kind of a grey area. In this sitch, you can make your award of 1B or 2B. If the runner is put out at 2B, return them to 1B, or award them 2B. Pretty simple.

[NCASAUmp]

I think what you're focusing too much on is the statement that the obstructed runner can not be put out between the two bases where they were obstructed. That is most certainly true. However, that doesn't mean that you necessarily only award just the one base.

Go back to my original statement about OBS. You award the base the runner would have reached had there been no OBS. The statement you make about the runner not being able to be put out between the two bases where they were OBS is one of the stipulations I had alluded to. That statement simply adds a layer of protection to the runner, nothing more. That same statement is not saying that the runner MUST be out if they advance beyond the two bases they were between. It falls right back to: award what they would have reached.

Take this sitch...

B1 is a fast runner, and she hits a good shot to the gap in the outfield. Easy triple for her. However, the catcher parallels the 1B foul line, but trips halfway down, falling into the path of B1. B1 trips over F2, stumbles, touches 1B, and goes for 2B. She gets tagged out.

Are you saying that you would only award 1B to the runner, even though you knew right away that she could have easily made it to 3B?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I still think you're reading a little too much into it.

OBS at the base itself is kind of a grey area. In this sitch, you can make your award of 1B or 2B. If the runner is put out at 2B, return them to 1B, or award them 2B. Pretty simple.

I agree. Looking for boogers. After all, it is up to umpire to determine OBS and I'm probably not going to see it until the runner reaches 1B.

[BlitzkriegBob]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I think what you're focusing too much on is the statement that the obstructed runner can not be put out between the two bases where they were obstructed. That is most certainly true. However, that doesn't mean that you necessarily only award just the one base.

Go back to my original statement about OBS. You award the base the runner would have reached had there been no OBS. The statement you make about the runner not being able to be put out between the two bases where they were OBS is one of the stipulations I had alluded to. That statement simply adds a layer of protection to the runner, nothing more. That same statement is not saying that the runner MUST be out if they advance beyond the two bases they were between. It falls right back to: award what they would have reached.

Take this sitch...

B1 is a fast runner, and she hits a good shot to the gap in the outfield. Easy triple for her. However, the catcher parallels the 1B foul line, but trips halfway down, falling into the path of B1. B1 trips over F2, stumbles, touches 1B, and goes for 2B. She gets tagged out.

Are you saying that you would only award 1B to the runner, even though you knew right away that she could have easily made it to 3B?

No, I would award her 3B, but if she made it to 3B safely anyway, then decided to go for home and was put out there (after I had determined that I was protecting her to 3B), then I would let the PU call her out. I'm not going to the PU and telling him that I'm putting her back on 3B. Am I mistaken for thinking this way? I don't think so, but feel free to correct me if I am. So once again, in my original scenario, if I feel the BR would only have made it to 1B, and was thrown out by 20 feet at 2B, are you telling me you would put her back on 1B? I'm not saying I wouldn't, because if I determined that the OBS occurred between 1B and 2B, then placing her back on 1B is correct, but if I determine that the OBS occurred between HP and 1B, then I am calling her out. That is the entire point of this topic. Once again, feel free to correct me.

By the way, I would agree that the garden variety OBS is in the majority during SP games, but in FP, more than half of the OBS calls that I made were similar to my situation. For whatever reason, high school players in this area seem unable to understand the concept that they are not supposed to be standing on the base while outfielders are still chasing down balls. High school coaches don't seem to have the knowledge or time to explain to their teams how they should be positioning themselves. After one game this year, I had one team's coach ask me, completely seriously, "The girls want to know why you keep saying construction?"

If I am making too much out of this, please pardon me. I just want to be confident that I am making the correct call at the moment that I need to make it.

[BlitzkriegBob]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I agree. Looking for boogers. After all, it is up to umpire to determine OBS and I'm probably not going to see it until the runner reaches 1B.

Okay, since Mike says I'm looking for boogers then obviously I am overreacting. I'll drop the subject. My apologies gentlemen.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

No, I would award her 3B, but if she made it to 3B safely anyway, then decided to go for home and was put out there (after I had determined that I was protecting her to 3B), then I would let the PU call her out. I'm not going to the PU and telling him that I'm putting her back on 3B. Am I mistaken for thinking this way? I don't think so, but feel free to correct me if I am.

Nope, that's the heart of the rule. They are out if they attempt to advance beyond their awarded base and are put out.

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

So once again, in my original scenario, if I feel the BR would only have made it to 1B, and was thrown out by 20 feet at 2B, are you telling me you would put her back on 1B? I'm not saying I wouldn't, because if I determined that the OBS occurred between 1B and 2B, then placing her back on 1B is correct, but if I determine that the OBS occurred between HP and 1B, then I am calling her out. That is the entire point of this topic. Once again, feel free to correct me.

We've actually debated this kind of a situation before on this forum. It's hard to be "between bases" if you're ON a base. I don't think you should split that hair any further than it's already been split. If I have someone rounding 1B, and they are obstructed while doing so, then they're going to get awarded at least 1B. If they would have made 2B, give them 2B. If they're tagged out at 2B by 20 feet as you mentioned, I'd return them to 1B. If a defensive coach wants to know why, my explanation is simple: she was obstructed while rounding 1B.

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

By the way, I would agree that the garden variety OBS is in the majority during SP games, but in FP, more than half of the OBS calls that I made were similar to my situation. For whatever reason, high school players in this area seem unable to understand the concept that they are not supposed to be standing on the base while outfielders are still chasing down balls. High school coaches don't seem to have the knowledge or time to explain to their teams how they should be positioning themselves. After one game this year, I had one team's coach ask me, completely seriously, "The girls want to know why you keep saying construction?"

If I am making too much out of this, please pardon me. I just want to be confident that I am making the correct call at the moment that I need to make it.

It sounds like you're making the right call, but it also sounds like you're looking for something that isn't there. I think the lightbulb has already gone "ding!" in your head, because you've already gotten the meaning of the rule. At the same time, you're just looking for another bulb.

[CecilOne]

In the OP case, the runner (BR) was OBS before reaching 1st.
The BU "judged that the runner would only have reached first base".

So, safe at 1st is the minimum, safe at 2nd only if she makes it because The BU "judged that the runner would only have reached first base".

The OBS occurred with the BR between home and 1st, so the "can't be out between X&Y bases applies there, not to between 1st and 2nd.

[BlitzkriegBob]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

In the OP case, the runner (BR) was OBS before reaching 1st.
The BU "judged that the runner would only have reached first base".

So, safe at 1st is the minimum, safe at 2nd only if she makes it because The BU "judged that the runner would only have reached first base".

The OBS occurred with the BR between home and 1st, so the "can't be out between X&Y bases applies there, not to between 1st and 2nd.

Thank you Cecil.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

In the OP case, the runner (BR) was OBS before reaching 1st.
The BU "judged that the runner would only have reached first base".

So, safe at 1st is the minimum, safe at 2nd only if she makes it because The BU "judged that the runner would only have reached first base".

The OBS occurred with the BR between home and 1st, so the "can't be out between X&Y bases applies there, not to between 1st and 2nd.

That would be true, but then you are assuming the OBS occured prior to 1B. I'm going to protect this runner between 1st & 2nd.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That would be true, but then you are assuming the OBS occured prior to 1B. I'm going to protect this runner between 1st & 2nd.

I was just "assuming" the OP said "before they can reach first base, ... snip ... slow down and alter their base path prior to reaching first base"