Does the run count?

[DeputyUICHousto]

Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.

What happens to R1 and R2 is irrelevant in this case. If the BR does not advance to 1B, no runs score.

DMR!

[argodad]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.

Did R2 touch 2B, then retreat toward dugout, or did R2 stop before reaching 2B? Or did R2 overrun 2B, then retreat? With or without retouching? Need more info, please.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by argodad

Did R2 touch 2B, then retreat toward dugout, or did R2 stop before reaching 2B? Or did R2 overrun 2B, then retreat? With or without retouching? Need more info, please.

That'll teach me to read closer... I thought he was asking about the BR.

If I'm picturing this correctly, I would say that yes, the force is reinstated as per 8-7-C. If F4 picks up the ball and touches 2B, we've got a force out, and no runs score.

[canump]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.

If the runner from 1st "R2" stopped before he reached 2nd when he saw the throw heading towards F4 from F6 and turned back towards his dugout thinking he was going to be out and F4 picked up the ball after dropping it and touched 2nd before R2 turned and got to 2nd then you still have a force out at 2nd. no run would score as the 3rd out was via a force.
By "retreating" towards 1st he is not removing or reinstating anything, the force at 2nd still exist.

[DaveASA/FED]

As I read the OP there is a bang/bang play at 2nd so the runner has touched 2nd base. So once they retreat toward 1st they have then reinstated the force on themselves.

[NCASAUmp]

If F4 doesn't pick up the ball and tag the runner or base, and R2 simply walks to the dugout, do you count the run?

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

If F4 doesn't pick up the ball and tag the runner or base, and R2 simply walks to the dugout, do you count the run?

No. You can't have a run score on this force out.

[youngump]

Yes, it's not a force out. He's out for abandonment. If on the other hand they make a force out, then I'd disallow it. That's not a force out.
________
The Peak Towers Condominium

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

No. You can't have a run score on this force out.

Just giving you guys food for thought. Keeping us sharp before Nationals.

[canump]

Originally Posted by canump

If the runner from 1st "R2" stopped before he reached 2nd when he saw the throw heading towards F4 from F6 and turned back towards his dugout thinking he was going to be out and F4 picked up the ball after dropping it and touched 2nd before R2 turned and got to 2nd then you still have a force out at 2nd. no run would score as the 3rd out was via a force.
By "retreating" towards 1st he is not removing or reinstating anything, the force at 2nd still exist.

As i take the time to read this i notice that it's a bang bang play at 2nd so forget everything i typed earlier. I had a DUH moment there..
Assuming R2 touched 2nd on the play, safe on the bang bang play as F4 dropped the ball, now force is off, R1 scores from 3rd. Force is not reinstated just because R2 retreats to his/her dugout.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by canump

Assuming R2 touched 2nd on the play, safe on the bang bang play as F4 dropped the ball, now force is off, R1 scores from 3rd. Force is not reinstated just because R2 retreats to his/her dugout.

I think that is the essence of this, which I can't get from the OP.
If R2 had reached 2nd safely and then abandoned afterward, no force out, run counts. If R2 had not reached 2nd safely and F4 or F6 finally made the play, then a force and no run.

A force is reinstated if a safe runner leaves the base and returns toward the previous base. In the OP, that direction is implied by "first base dugout"; but I would have to judge whether R2 was headed for 1st or simply leaving. Of course, the DMR reinstating the force would negate the "run" if the defensd finally made the play. A succeeding BR/R3 would make returning to 1st very unlikely in my mind.

The other Q is whether being out on abandonnment before reaching 2nd is a force out and I would say that if that happened, R2 is out before reaching a base forced to, so no run if third out.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.

My question is what did the umpire do?

Did the umpire call the runner out, thereby putting the runner in jeopardy because of a "bad call". If so, then I say the runner is put back on base and all other play stands.

If he called the runner safe then the runner had a brain fart, too bad runner out and no run scores.

[IamMatt]

Let me see if I have this straight. It sounds like there is a consensus that R2 made it to 2B about the same time as the throw that was dropped (OP called it a bang-bang play), and that he touched the base. Sounds like there is consensus that he is safe at 2B due to the dropped ball by F4. Not stated in the OP but we might expect him to have been called safe. Therefore at this point, the force is no longer in place. Is that right so far?

Now, the only way the force can be reinstated (at least in the sitch provided) is for R2 to retreat towards 1B. Is that right?

If I am correct so far, then is the crux of the matter whether heading to the dugout is considered "retreating towards 1B?" If so then the force it reinstated and if not, he is simply liable to be put out the same as if he were safe at 2B then wandered off the base in any direction (as long as he is on the playing field)?