Respect for the Anthem

[shipwreck]

This is from a website that desribes flag etiquette. I bolded what I was trying to say, I didn't mean to make it too hard. Dave

Displaying the Flag Outdoors
When the flag is displayed from a staff projecting from a window, balcony, or a building, the union should be at the peak of the staff unless the flag is at half staff.

When it is displayed from the same flagpole with another flag - of a state, community, society or Scout unit - the flag of the United States must always be at the top except that the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for Navy personnel when conducted by a Naval chaplain on a ship at sea.

When the flag is displayed over a street, it should be hung vertically, with the union to the north or east. If the flag is suspended over a sidewalk, the flag's union should be farthest from the building.

When flown with flags of states, communities, or societies on separate flag poles which are of the same height and in a straight line, the flag of the United States is always placed in the position of honor - to its own right.
..The other flags may be smaller but none may be larger.
..No other flag ever should be placed above it.
..The flag of the United States is always the first flag raised and the last to be lowered.

[wadeintothem]

The only flag rule I know of that I dont follow is I decide when my flag is to half staff. I have a full sized and illuminated flag pole. CA orders it lowered every time a soldier is killed (which is politically motiviated IMO and a slight anti war gesture and I wont do it), I have seen it lowered for police, politicians I cant stand, etc. I'll decide, regardless of who orders it. I'm not going to run out to my flag pole every time some socialist California politician kicks the bucket.

I lower it on Memorial Day, Sept 11, and a few other times a year or if something real significant happens (like when Reagan died I kept it lowered the whole time or I lowered it when the Prez ordered it re the Pope). Its mine so thats I how I do it.

[strike4]

Originally Posted by argodad

No they didn't. It was only passed by the House, never by the Senate, so it didn't become law.

WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Senator Jim Inhofe (R-Okla..) today praised the passage by unanimous consent of his bill (S.1877) clarifying U.S. law to allow veterans and servicemen not in uniform to salute the flag. Current law (US Code Title 4, Chapter 1) states that veterans and servicemen not in uniform should place their hand over their heart without clarifying whether they can or should salute the flag.

“The salute is a form of honor and respect, representing pride in one’s military service,” Senator Inhofe said. “Veterans and service members continue representing the military services even when not in uniform. “Unfortunately, current U.S. law leaves confusion as to whether veterans and service members out of uniform can or should salute the flag. My legislation will clarify this regulation, allowing veterans and servicemen alike to salute the flag, whether they are in uniform or not. “I look forward to seeing those who have served saluting proudly at baseball games, parades, and formal events. I believe this is an appropriate way to honor and recognize the 25 million veterans in the United States who have served in the military and remain as role models to others citizens. Those who are currently serving or have served in the military have earned this right, and their recognition will be an inspiration to others.”

This Bill was passed July 25, 2007. Please let your veteran friends know about the passage of this Bill.

[shipwreck]

What an AWESOME law. That is so very true. They are all veterans or servicemen or women regardless of what they are wearing. Dave

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

What an AWESOME law. That is so very true. They are all veterans or servicemen or women regardless of what they are wearing. Dave

Personally, I don't care for it. And yes, I am a vet.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by strike4

WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Senator Jim Inhofe (R-Okla..) today praised the passage by unanimous consent of his bill (S.1877) clarifying U.S. law to allow veterans and servicemen not in uniform to salute the flag. Current law (US Code Title 4, Chapter 1) states that veterans and servicemen not in uniform should place their hand over their heart without clarifying whether they can or should salute the flag.

“The salute is a form of honor and respect, representing pride in one’s military service,” Senator Inhofe said. “Veterans and service members continue representing the military services even when not in uniform. “Unfortunately, current U.S. law leaves confusion as to whether veterans and service members out of uniform can or should salute the flag. My legislation will clarify this regulation, allowing veterans and servicemen alike to salute the flag, whether they are in uniform or not. “I look forward to seeing those who have served saluting proudly at baseball games, parades, and formal events. I believe this is an appropriate way to honor and recognize the 25 million veterans in the United States who have served in the military and remain as role models to others citizens. Those who are currently serving or have served in the military have earned this right, and their recognition will be an inspiration to others.”

This Bill was passed July 25, 2007. Please let your veteran friends know about the passage of this Bill.

I "misremembered." It was passed by the Senate last summer, but not by the House. This is from the GovTrack.us website:

This bill has been passed in the Senate. The bill now goes on to be voted on in the House. Keep in mind that debate may be taking place on a companion bill in the House, rather than on this particular bill. [Last Updated: Jun 15, 2008]

So it still isn't a law.

We have a lot of vets in our association, so we've followed the discussion pretty closely.

[shipwreck]

Come on Mike, elaborate on your position. Don't leave us hanging since we all respect your opinions, at least the ones where you explain your stance on something. Dave

[strike4]

Originally Posted by argodad

I "misremembered." It was passed by the Senate last summer, but not by the House. This is from the GovTrack.us website:

This bill has been passed in the Senate. The bill now goes on to be voted on in the House. Keep in mind that debate may be taking place on a companion bill in the House, rather than on this particular bill. [Last Updated: Jun 15, 2008]

So it still isn't a law.

We have a lot of vets in our association, so we've followed the discussion pretty closely.

Rules for Rendering Hand Salute of U.S. Flag
New Law Allows Retirees and Vets to Salute Flag
The National Defense Authorization Act of 2008 contained an amendment to allow un-uniformed servicemembers, military retirees, and veterans to render a hand salute during the hoisting, lowering, or passing of the U.S. flag. The amendment does not address saluting the flag during the playing of the national anthem, pledge of allegiance, honors (i.e. Taps), or any other saluting situations.

Excerpt from H.R. 4986:

SEC. 594. CONDUCT BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES AND VETERANS OUT OF UNIFORM DURING HOISTING, LOWERING, OR PASSING OF UNITED STATES FLAG.

Section 9 of title 4, United States Code, is amended by striking “all persons present” and all that follows through the end of the section and inserting the following: “all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.”


Argodad,

You are correct about saluting during the National Anthem. What changed was saluting while HOISTING, LOWERING, OR PASSING OF UNITED STATES FLAG.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

Strike4

[Dakota]

Anyone know what the ORIGINAL civilian salute of the flag during the pledge and anthem was and when and why it was changed to the hand over the heart? (This is a test.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

Come on Mike, elaborate on your position. Don't leave us hanging since we all respect your opinions, at least the ones where you explain your stance on something. Dave

I just don't care for it. IMO, a hand salute is for persons in uniform. Just a personal opinion, but thank you for caring.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Anyone know what the ORIGINAL civilian salute of the flag during the pledge and anthem was and when and why it was changed to the hand over the heart? (This is a test.)

Sticks in my mind that it was a raised hand, and it was changed in the late 1930s because it was too much like the Nazi salute. Or am I misremembering again?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by argodad

Sticks in my mind that it was a raised hand, and it was changed in the late 1930s because it was too much like the Nazi salute. Or am I misremembering again?

You got it. Also known as the "Roman Salute" before the Nazis and Italian Fascists ruined it.

[NDblue]

As a vet, I don't like the bill or law one bit. I think rendering a hand salute in civilian attire looks stupid and is disrespectful to the ones still in uniform.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by strike4

Rules for Rendering Hand Salute of U.S. Flag
New Law Allows Retirees and Vets to Salute Flag
The National Defense Authorization Act of 2008 contained an amendment to allow un-uniformed servicemembers, military retirees, and veterans to render a hand salute during the hoisting, lowering, or passing of the U.S. flag. The amendment does not address saluting the flag during the playing of the national anthem, pledge of allegiance, honors (i.e. Taps), or any other saluting situations.

Excerpt from H.R. 4986:

SEC. 594. CONDUCT BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES AND VETERANS OUT OF UNIFORM DURING HOISTING, LOWERING, OR PASSING OF UNITED STATES FLAG.

Section 9 of title 4, United States Code, is amended by striking “all persons present” and all that follows through the end of the section and inserting the following: “all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.”


Argodad,

You are correct about saluting during the National Anthem. What changed was saluting while HOISTING, LOWERING, OR PASSING OF UNITED STATES FLAG.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

Strike4

Just because a bill passes the Senate does not mean it is a law. It must also be passed in the House and then signed by the president. (Or not signed by the president, which according to rules may either become law without signature or be a "pocket veto." Look it up yourself if you're that interested.)

I know MANY vets who don't like it -- hence its lack of passage from the house. MANY vets believe one should be in uniform for saluting. This is according to the top aide for a Member of Congress from CA.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by BuggBob

While I clearly would have stopped the game if I was the PU, I would support and defend some scumbag's choice to not stop the game while the Anthem was played. Lastly members of the military who are properly covered need not remove their cap, but can actually hand salute when the colors are presented.

Bugg

Bob,
Do you take off those goggles?
Sorry, had to ask buddy. Hope your season is going well.