As Much as I Respect...

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

..officials in all sports..especially the 'professionals'..I could help but be...um..embarrassed by the performance of Tom White & crew in yesterday's Houston-Jets game....especially in 3Q..I have NEVER seen an NFL crew so confused. I have never EVER seen an NFL crew ACTUALLY PICK UP A FLAG ON A ILLEGAL BLOCK before....Plus Tom White's propensity for ticky-tack calls (even for the NFL)..plu ssome incredible ball spotting..plus some incredible foul enforcement..ever see an NFL crew forget how many yards a personal foul is??? - did anyone happen to watch this game?? I sure would appreciate experienced football officials opinions...It was VERY difficult to watch this and NOT think that White is the poorest R in the NFL...his crews CONSISTANTLY throw more linen than any other crew in the league...

OK Im done venting...but..IM a JETS fan and I even thought that picking up the flag on the illegal block was weird....I thought Capers wuz going to take a bite out his headset!!

[jfurdell]

I'm not one to generally criticize NFL officials either... but his crew definitely seems to be having some issues this year, not just in performance but in communication.

[mcrowder]

I was watching this with a bunch of buddies, and to be honest, I was embarrassed. This is the worst I've ever seen. Fans began booing when they saw a flag, before it was even announced who it was on. The flow of the game was completely interrupted, and mostly not for "normal" reasons. Yuck.

(And the picked up flag on the BIB was bad enough that they should be reprimanded for it.)

[MJT]

Originally posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE
..his crews CONSISTANTLY throw more linen than any other crew in the league...

Didn't see the game, but you might want to check some stats before you state they throw a ton of flags cuz here are the number of penalties in yesterdays games.
11 - Tom Whites crew
9
13
14
17
16
18
16
14
10
13
19
20
15
14
Seems to me like they had the 3rd fewest of the 15 games, but those are only FACTS.

Do you know why the flag was picked up? These guys have forgotten more about the NFL rules then you will ever know. I work NFL rules in semi-pro ball and there are more exceptions to the rules then there are rules. Did you know there are 7 holding exceptions, yes, it is right in the rule book stating that what would normally be called holding "is not a foul for holding" in these exceptions. In less the League says they "screwed up", which the league admits when they do, they got it right. There is somewhere you can get the number of penalties each crew threw last year if you really want it, but I don't know where it is.

By the way, fans boo everytime they see a flag cuz they normally can tell by who throws it if it is on their team or not.

Like I said, I didn't see the game, but one or two plays do not make a game, and you cannot judge a crew by the fans reactions. Sometimes to get it right, the "group talk" could take a while to get it right. Hopefully, eventually, they got it right. I would rank Tom White as one of the better R's overall, but remember, anybody can have a bad day if that did in fact happen.

We'll see them in primetime next week as I know they have the Monday night game.

[MJT]

I just saw on Monday night FB where the R came on the mic and said "there was no foul for block in the back." I had just flipped the channel as my wife was watching something and they did not show a replay. There must be something we are not aware of on why they are picking up the flag for this foul. My thought is that he throws the flag and then when they discuss it, the foul occured as a teammate was making the tackle. This is one of the holding exceptions I mentioned in the previous post. That is a rule for holding, where even if you throw a flag for holding, if you relize a teammate was tackling a runner behind the LOS, you pick up the flag. Now we do not do such a thing in NF or NCAA, but I know they do in the NFL.

Maybe Whites crew actually knows the rules and enforces them properly, even if we do not always understand it.

[Dommer1]

Well, it was an interesting game officiating wise, I think we can agree on that. However, picking up a flag thrown for an illegal block has been done before, nothing new there. That's why there are 7 guys out there, to get the angles. I don't find that strange or surprising at all.

[mcrowder]

"Didn't see the game" kind of sums it up, doesn't it. Maybe you should refraim a little from bashing others when you have no knowledge from whence you speak.

Anyway - it wasn't necessarily the number of flags. It was a stretch of about 6 consecutive plays where they had to stop down, discuss things, and then come out with explanations that really sounded like, "We don't really know why we huddled, and aren't sure of our conclusion." It was awful. And I'm usually the guy in the room defending the officials. Like I said - embarrassing.

As to the picked-up BIB, it was shown on replay - it was a BIB. They explained to us that they waived it off because it was a block in the side. But it wasn't. Not even close. And I can't recall ever seeing a BIB waived off because someone else saw it differently.

[MJT]

Originally posted by mcrowder
"Didn't see the game" kind of sums it up, doesn't it. Maybe you should refraim a little from bashing others when you have no knowledge from whence you speak.

Anyway - it wasn't necessarily the number of flags. It was a stretch of about 6 consecutive plays where they had to stop down, discuss things, and then come out with explanations that really sounded like, "We don't really know why we huddled, and aren't sure of our conclusion." It was awful. And I'm usually the guy in the room defending the officials. Like I said - embarrassing.

As to the picked-up BIB, it was shown on replay - it was a BIB. They explained to us that they waived it off because it was a block in the side. But it wasn't. Not even close. And I can't recall ever seeing a BIB waived off because someone else saw it differently.

Even though I didn't see it, I have something to contribute cuz I work NFL rules in semi-pro ball. That was most of my discussion and that they probably got the calls right, but we did not understand why. I was not trying to bash, but defend those being bashed. I try to carefully choose my words as not to bash, as that is never my intentions, just pointing out some circustances.

[mcrowder]

Fair enough, MJT. However, this is not the traditional lurker complaining about officials. This particular case is OFFICIALS bothered by the disorganization of NFL officials. Trust me - they were awful, even if they were "right" on every call. It was a constant litany of huddles and discussions, and it completely took away from the flow of the game.

The waiving off of the BIB was just the icing on the cake, as I cannot remember this happening in ANY game I've ever worked or watched. Only made it worse that the waiving off was wrong as well.

I have NFL ticket and I record alot of games each weekend. I edit out the officials calls and put them on DVD as training for the cadet officials. (it's much easier to see a call then explain it). But I notice alot of BIB calls being picked-up (this season)..whatever the reason maybe....
I did not record the Jets game...

[AndrewMcCarthy]

An illegal block flag was waved off in last night's Dallas-Seattle game as well.

[PSU213]

First of all, I saw a game where a block in the back flag was "picked up." It involved a Big 10 crew...the LJ threw the flag on a kick-off return, and the FJ "told him" that the block was legal, and they picked it up (and the worked a great game, IMHO).

That having been said, I saw a game earlier this year (Phil/Cle) that was worked by White's crew, and there was several questionable calls (including a late roughing the passer call). I also remember some replay in the Tenn/Miami game at the beginning of the year that people say White got wrong(?).

Anyway, I'm not an expert on such things, and I do have great respect for all NFL officials, I just can't say I vehemently disagree with the original post.

[jfurdell]

I don't have a problem with picking up a BIB flag per se... I've even done that, but only after accidentally throwing it on a defensive player whom I later realized was going after the runner.

In that Bills-Texans game, the block in question was by the offense, and it may have been in the shoulder and not in the back. Picking it up may not have been the wrong move... judging from the other BIB flags picked up recently, it may even be a point of emphasis in the NFL to make sure it's squarely in the back. This happened to be a high-visibility reversal because the play resulted in a touchdown.

They apparently had another weird ruling in the third quarter:

Leading 7-6 with under nine minutes to play in the third quarter, the Texans set up to punt from their own 6, with punter Chad Stanley standing in the back of the end zone.

But when the ball was snapped, it ended up hitting referee Tom White before rolling out of the back of the end zone. Instead of signaling a safety that would have put the Jets up 8-7 and given them the ball, White immediately blew the play dead.

After a short meeting with officials, White announced that the play was blown dead because "everyone wasn't ready, including the official."

Whaaa? There's no ready-for-play signal in the NFL after a down ends (just a 40-second count). And there was no time out before this play. In other words: you have to be ready.

I'm sure their worst performance is better than my best performance... but I'd be surprised to see White's crew get a playoff game. For whatever reason they seem to be struggling.

CORRECTION: Yeah yeah, it was actually Jets-Texans. All those New York teams are the same anyway.

[Edited by jfurdell on Dec 9th, 2004 at 11:35 AM]

[MJT]

Originally posted by tpaul
I have NFL ticket and I record alot of games each weekend. I edit out the officials calls and put them on DVD as training for the cadet officials. (it's much easier to see a call then explain it). But I notice alot of BIB calls being picked-up (this season)..whatever the reason maybe....
I did not record the Jets game...

Do you just have the "announcement and signal" on your DVD, or do you have a replay of the play with the foul. If you have the plays as well, I may be interested in buying one if you would be willing. I am not a newbie, but if the play, and then the explanation and fouls are all on there, I may be interested. Let me know and I'll include my email if need be.

[ABoselli]

Bills/Texans?

My Bills were busy opening up a can of whoopass on the Dolphins in south Florida last week.