Appeal play

[greymule]

It's gone from Fed now, but what many people used to call the "accidental appeal" was really an accidental force play. It applied only to missed bases on which there was a force (or BR before 1B), not to bases left too soon. It was also in baseball only, not softball.

It derived from Fed's peculiar interpretation of an oft-discussed play in baseball: the BR beats the throw to 1B but misses the bag and overruns. In OBR, the umpire is to call "safe." To get the out on the miss, the defense must appeal by tagging the runner (not just by stepping on the bag and appealing, which would be possible in ASA). But Fed's ruling was that since the fielder touched the bag before the BR did, the call should be "out." By extension, if a runner on 1B proceeded to 3B on a single but missed 2B, Fed called the runner out on the accidental force play if a fielder with the ball, even if obviously not appealing, casually kicked dirt off 2B or stumbled over the bag. This play was so mocked and derided that Fed got rid of it a few years ago.

As far as Part B of the OP goes, if the runner was obviously well off 3B when the ball was caught, then you're going to be safe in assuming that the throw to 3B is an appeal and in calling an out when the fielder's foot brushes the bag. But if you saw the runner leave just slightly too soon, then you'd need an unmistakable appeal.

On the other hand, even if the runner was obviously off on the catch, if the defense played on the runner in a manner inconsistent with an appeal, such as by chasing the runner around in a rundown between 3B and home, then I wouldn't treat the play as an appeal until the defense so specified.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by greymule

On the other hand, even if the runner was obviously off on the catch, if the defense played on the runner in a manner inconsistent with an appeal, such as by chasing the runner around in a rundown between 3B and home, then I wouldn't treat the play as an appeal until the defense so specified.

But isn't trying to tag the runner with your foot an inch off of 3B "in a manner inconsistent with an appeal"? I guess that was the gist of my original question.
________
AVANDIA PROBLEMS

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by youngump

But isn't trying to tag the runner with your foot an inch off of 3B "in a manner inconsistent with an appeal"? I guess that was the gist of my original question.

You aren't going to be able to get a definitive answer on this, only examples of things that clearly ARE a live ball appeal, and some where more information is needed.

It really all boils down to you. If you KNOW the player is executing a live ball appeal, recognize the appeal. If you aren't sure, you need more from the player before you recognize the appeal.

[CecilOne]

Besides, we already covered this:

Appeal play

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by greymule

It's gone from Fed now, but what many people used to call the "accidental appeal" was really an accidental force play. It applied only to missed bases on which there was a force (or BR before 1B), not to bases left too soon. It was also in baseball only, not softball.

It derived from Fed's peculiar interpretation of an oft-discussed play in baseball: the BR beats the throw to 1B but misses the bag and overruns. In OBR, the umpire is to call "safe." To get the out on the miss, the defense must appeal by tagging the runner (not just by stepping on the bag and appealing, which would be possible in ASA). But Fed's ruling was that since the fielder touched the bag before the BR did, the call should be "out." By extension, if a runner on 1B proceeded to 3B on a single but missed 2B, Fed called the runner out on the accidental force play if a fielder with the ball, even if obviously not appealing, casually kicked dirt off 2B or stumbled over the bag. This play was so mocked and derided that Fed got rid of it a few years ago.

As far as Part B of the OP goes, if the runner was obviously well off 3B when the ball was caught, then you're going to be safe in assuming that the throw to 3B is an appeal and in calling an out when the fielder's foot brushes the bag. But if you saw the runner leave just slightly too soon, then you'd need an unmistakable appeal.

On the other hand, even if the runner was obviously off on the catch, if the defense played on the runner in a manner inconsistent with an appeal, such as by chasing the runner around in a rundown between 3B and home, then I wouldn't treat the play as an appeal until the defense so specified.

CAUTION: This is an old "mechanic" that left Federation a decade ago. There was a time when Federation allowed umpires to rule on missed bases without a proper appeal. This is no longer so and is not accurate in any of the codes I am familiar with. While the history lesson is interesting, I think it only serves to create confusion.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

CAUTION: This is an old "mechanic" that left Federation a decade ago. There was a time when Federation allowed umpires to rule on missed bases without a proper appeal. This is no longer so and is not accurate in any of the codes I am familiar with. While the history lesson is interesting, I think it only serves to create confusion.

You mean like responding to 4 yo posts?

[JefferMC]

1) it's only 3.5 years old

2) The "forward thinking" state of South Carolina still does missed bases using the old mechanics. Changed the result of a playoff game 2 years ago.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

1) it's only 3.5 years old

I'm sorry, I meant to post 3 year, 8 month, 8 day, 7 hour and 50 minute-old post.

2) The "forward thinking" state of South Carolina still does missed bases using the old mechanics. Changed the result of a playoff game 2 years ago.

They are waiting for the CSA to make a return.