Appeal play

[youngump]

(I know; I gotta be crazy to bring this up right now).

So, rec youth game play and the trolling got me thinking about something. Don't have my ASA book handy, so I checked the NFHS rule on this. Let me know if ASA is different since my rulebooks in my umpiring bag.

Play was this: runner on third with no outs, short fly out to F7 and quick throw to third. Runner gets back after the throw but F5 is not touching the base and tries to tag her and misses. I call the runner safe because the live ball appeal was not properly completed.

But it got me thinking and I'm wondering if this is all correct.
A) An appeal has to be intentional, so if the third baseman catches the ball off the bag fakes a throw toward home causing the runner to break back toward third and then F5 runs through the base trying to run down the runner. This is not an appeal, make no call unless the runner is tagged.

B) If the third baseman catches the ball straddling the bag and decides to tag the runner and in so doing her foot catches the bag unintentionally, she is not intentionally appealing so rulebook wise the runner shouldn't be called out. However, if I make that call I'll be eaten alive, so deem her attempt to tag the runner as evidence of an appeal and call the runner out.



And then I got to thinking about live ball and dead ball appeals. So the rule says that a live ball appeal consists of tagging the base in question or the runner. So if the ball is not dead, I can't accept any verbal appeal? If I get one, can I call it dead and ask for the appeal to be repeated or is that considered tipping one team?
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KID PAXIL

[Dakota]

An appeal has to be "properly made." For most live ball appeals (e.g. runner left early on a caught fly ball) everybody in the park knows that the defense is making a live ball appeal (even if they don't know it is called that). So, the key in both of your examples is whether YOU know that the defense is making an appeal. If there is doubt, then the defense needs to indicate somehow that they are making an appeal.

ASA does not recognize the accidental appeal (e.g. defender with the ball happens to walk across a base missed or left early).

Verbal ONLY is not a proper live ball appeal, but it can clarify that the defense is making an appeal. If the defense tries to make a verbal appeal while the ball is live, they cannot be tipped off, since they already are making an appeal, and they have (presumably) just tipped off the offense. Before you can declare the ball dead, the offense needs to have completed their advance / retreat, etc., so if the defense just tipped off the offense and the runner attempts to retreat to touch the base missed or left early, you need to allow them to complete that before you kill the ball.

[dmore]

I don't understand why this situation is considered part of an appeal. They both sound like the standard interpetatoin of the live ball handling of a caught popup.

Runner leaves, fielder catches the ball, runner heads back to third. If you tag the runner or the base before they gets back, the runner is out. Doesn't matter if the contact with the base is "inadvertent" or not.

THis is only an appeal if that runner advances and doesn't go back. Then they have to execute the appeal.

Am I missing something here?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by dmore

I don't understand why this situation is considered part of an appeal. They both sound like the standard interpetatoin of the live ball handling of a caught popup.

Runner leaves, fielder catches the ball, runner heads back to third. If you tag the runner or the base before they gets back, the runner is out. Doesn't matter if the contact with the base is "inadvertent" or not.

THis is only an appeal if that runner advances and doesn't go back. Then they have to execute the appeal.

Am I missing something here?

Yes, you are. Leaving a base early is an appeal play. See the definition for appeal for support of that.
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SuperShow cam

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by dmore

I don't understand why this situation is considered part of an appeal. They both sound like the standard interpetatoin of the live ball handling of a caught popup.

Which is, of course, a live ball appeal.

Originally Posted by dmore

Doesn't matter if the contact with the base is "inadvertent" or not.

Yes, it does. ASA (and many others) do not recognize an accidental appeal. The appeal must be properly made.

Originally Posted by dmore

THis is only an appeal if that runner advances and doesn't go back.

Ummm, no, it isn't

Originally Posted by dmore

Am I missing something here?

Yes. Understanding of the rule book. Look up "Appeal Play" in definitions and ASA 8-7-F and EFFECT.

[greymule]

It's gone from Fed now, but what many people used to call the "accidental appeal" was really an accidental force play. It applied only to missed bases on which there was a force (or BR before 1B), not to bases left too soon. It was also in baseball only, not softball.

It derived from Fed's peculiar interpretation of an oft-discussed play in baseball: the BR beats the throw to 1B but misses the bag and overruns. In OBR, the umpire is to call "safe." To get the out on the miss, the defense must appeal by tagging the runner (not just by stepping on the bag and appealing, which would be possible in ASA). But Fed's ruling was that since the fielder touched the bag before the BR did, the call should be "out." By extension, if a runner on 1B proceeded to 3B on a single but missed 2B, Fed called the runner out on the accidental force play if a fielder with the ball, even if obviously not appealing, casually kicked dirt off 2B or stumbled over the bag. This play was so mocked and derided that Fed got rid of it a few years ago.

As far as Part B of the OP goes, if the runner was obviously well off 3B when the ball was caught, then you're going to be safe in assuming that the throw to 3B is an appeal and in calling an out when the fielder's foot brushes the bag. But if you saw the runner leave just slightly too soon, then you'd need an unmistakable appeal.

On the other hand, even if the runner was obviously off on the catch, if the defense played on the runner in a manner inconsistent with an appeal, such as by chasing the runner around in a rundown between 3B and home, then I wouldn't treat the play as an appeal until the defense so specified.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by greymule

On the other hand, even if the runner was obviously off on the catch, if the defense played on the runner in a manner inconsistent with an appeal, such as by chasing the runner around in a rundown between 3B and home, then I wouldn't treat the play as an appeal until the defense so specified.

But isn't trying to tag the runner with your foot an inch off of 3B "in a manner inconsistent with an appeal"? I guess that was the gist of my original question.
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AVANDIA PROBLEMS

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by youngump

But isn't trying to tag the runner with your foot an inch off of 3B "in a manner inconsistent with an appeal"? I guess that was the gist of my original question.

You aren't going to be able to get a definitive answer on this, only examples of things that clearly ARE a live ball appeal, and some where more information is needed.

It really all boils down to you. If you KNOW the player is executing a live ball appeal, recognize the appeal. If you aren't sure, you need more from the player before you recognize the appeal.

[CecilOne]

Besides, we already covered this:

Appeal play

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by greymule

It's gone from Fed now, but what many people used to call the "accidental appeal" was really an accidental force play. It applied only to missed bases on which there was a force (or BR before 1B), not to bases left too soon. It was also in baseball only, not softball.

It derived from Fed's peculiar interpretation of an oft-discussed play in baseball: the BR beats the throw to 1B but misses the bag and overruns. In OBR, the umpire is to call "safe." To get the out on the miss, the defense must appeal by tagging the runner (not just by stepping on the bag and appealing, which would be possible in ASA). But Fed's ruling was that since the fielder touched the bag before the BR did, the call should be "out." By extension, if a runner on 1B proceeded to 3B on a single but missed 2B, Fed called the runner out on the accidental force play if a fielder with the ball, even if obviously not appealing, casually kicked dirt off 2B or stumbled over the bag. This play was so mocked and derided that Fed got rid of it a few years ago.

As far as Part B of the OP goes, if the runner was obviously well off 3B when the ball was caught, then you're going to be safe in assuming that the throw to 3B is an appeal and in calling an out when the fielder's foot brushes the bag. But if you saw the runner leave just slightly too soon, then you'd need an unmistakable appeal.

On the other hand, even if the runner was obviously off on the catch, if the defense played on the runner in a manner inconsistent with an appeal, such as by chasing the runner around in a rundown between 3B and home, then I wouldn't treat the play as an appeal until the defense so specified.

CAUTION: This is an old "mechanic" that left Federation a decade ago. There was a time when Federation allowed umpires to rule on missed bases without a proper appeal. This is no longer so and is not accurate in any of the codes I am familiar with. While the history lesson is interesting, I think it only serves to create confusion.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

CAUTION: This is an old "mechanic" that left Federation a decade ago. There was a time when Federation allowed umpires to rule on missed bases without a proper appeal. This is no longer so and is not accurate in any of the codes I am familiar with. While the history lesson is interesting, I think it only serves to create confusion.

You mean like responding to 4 yo posts?

[JefferMC]

1) it's only 3.5 years old

2) The "forward thinking" state of South Carolina still does missed bases using the old mechanics. Changed the result of a playoff game 2 years ago.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

1) it's only 3.5 years old

I'm sorry, I meant to post 3 year, 8 month, 8 day, 7 hour and 50 minute-old post.

2) The "forward thinking" state of South Carolina still does missed bases using the old mechanics. Changed the result of a playoff game 2 years ago.

They are waiting for the CSA to make a return.