Did I kick it ?

[Chess Ref]

ASA SP....
R1 on 2B. One hopper off the pitchers glove. Ball then hits the runner going to 3B. F6 was definetly in position to make a play on the ball till it hit the runner.

I come up with "dead ball" ,R1 is out. No one disagreed-not that that mattered- but was wondering if the pitcher touching changes anything from a normal ball hits runner deal.....

Rule 8-7-J-4 uses the intentionally in regards to a deflected batted ball....hence my not being totally sure of the deal....

[NCASAUmp]

Could the runner reasonably have avoided the ball? Did he even know where it was? If so, then you were correct.

However, 8-8-F:

When a runner is hit by a fair batted ball after it touches, or is touched by, any fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner could not avoid contact with the ball.

If that sounds more like what happened, then... Yeah, you kicked it one time.

[Chess Ref]

But it made no reference to a deflected batted ball. So my thinking was that 8-7-J was a more appropriate rule.

Now I would go with I DIDN'T kick it.

I'm still new enough that I haven't seen everything and, believe it or not, I haven't seen this one yet after 4 years....

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Could the runner reasonably have avoided the ball? Did he even know where it was? If so, then you were correct.

However, 8-8-F:

Now having read 8-8-F I'm changing my call to I KICKED it.

Or NOT

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

But it made no reference to a deflected batted ball. So my thinking was that 8-7-J was a more appropriate rule.

8.7.J does not apply. Keep reading, 8.7.K refers to being hit with a batted ball, but untouched.

As noted, 8.8.F is your deciding factor.

[SRW]

I believe this rule is slightly different in NFHS for this same play... can one of you NFHS guru's post the rule reference/language about the initial play and the deflection off of F1... or possibly an NFHS case play?

Gracias

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

8.7.J does not apply. Keep reading, 8.7.K refers to being hit with a batted ball, but untouched.

As noted, 8.8.F is your deciding factor.

Lesson learned. I did KICK IT.....

So I just have a live ball in that SITCH and let them play on ?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Lesson learned. I did KICK IT.....

So I just have a live ball in that SITCH and let them play on ?

If you felt that the runner could not have avoided the ball, then yes, play on. Otherwise, if you felt that he intentionally got in the way, then no, your call would have been correct.

From what I read, it sounds like 8-8-F applied.

[Tru_in_Blu]

ASA SP Runners on first and second, no outs. I am PU working w/ a partner.

Batter hit a long drive to LF. As I'm moving up the third base line, I have R1 in my vision. F7 makes an outstanding catch, back to home plate, like a wide receiver in football. I signaled and verbalized "out". R1, apparently thinking there was no chance for a catch has now rounded third. He basically gave up and did not try to return to second base.

As the ball is coming in from F7 to second base, I see R2 had just pulled up on the base. Partner is outside the baseline and now trailing R2. The infielder gets the ball and steps on second base. I called out to retire R1 on the live ball appeal. Not sure if partner also called out.

Now there is some confusion about R1 on second base. No one tagged him with the ball but F4 ran over to 1B and stepped on the base. I'm looking at my partner, and he's got nothing. We got together to discuss and I asked if he saw R1 tag up. He did not. We ended up calling R1 out for an obviously controversial triple play. Runner was not happy, claiming he did tag.

After the game, partner and I discussed. He said he had the tag at second. I asked, well, then who is supposed to take the tag at first? I think at that point he realized he messed up. We sometimes game plan that in a similar situation with the ball being hit to RF, that the BU will take the tag on the runner at second, while PU takes the tag at first given field of vision.

So a couple of things. I can't fault my partner for "getting inside" on this play. The ball off the bat to the catch was maybe 3-4 seconds. He still should have been checking the runner at first.

I usually go by the axiom of if you don't see an out, don't call an out. This case, we didn't see a tag up, and as a result, called an out.

How would others have handled this one?

Thanx.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by SRW

I believe this rule is slightly different in NFHS for this same play... can one of you NFHS guru's post the rule reference/language about the initial play and the deflection off of F1... or possibly an NFHS case play?

Gracias

FED 2-47-3 Initial Play. A fielder is considered to be making an initial play on a fair batted ball when she:
a. Has a reasonable chance to gain control of a ground ball that no other fielder (except the piterh) has touched.
b. Has a reasonable chance to catch the ball in flight or catch the ball in flight after it touches another fielder.
c. Fails to gain control of the batted ball and is within a step and a reach (in any direction) of the spot of the initial contact.

But, FED 8-8-6 has essentially the same wording as ASA on the deflected ball rule.
The runner is not out when: is hit with a fair batted ball after it touches, or is touched by, any fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner could not avoid contact with the ball.

[dtwsd]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Now there is some confusion about R1 on second base. No one tagged him with the ball but F4 ran over to 1B and stepped on the base. I'm looking at my partner, and he's got nothing. We got together to discuss and I asked if he saw R1 tag up. He did not. We ended up calling R1 out for an obviously controversial triple play. Runner was not happy, claiming he did tag.

I usually go by the axiom of if you don't see an out, don't call an out. This case, we didn't see a tag up, and as a result, called an out.

How would others have handled this one?

Thanx.

Even though it is likely that R1 did not tag up, if you or your partner did not actually see that he didn't tag up you have to go by the "axiom" and not honor the appeal. At that point all you can do is take a little heat from the DC and tell him/her that you can't call it if you didn't see it.

That's how I would have handled it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

ASA SP Runners on first and second, no outs. I am PU working w/ a partner.

Batter hit a long drive to LF. As I'm moving up the third base line, I have R1 in my vision. F7 makes an outstanding catch, back to home plate, like a wide receiver in football. I signaled and verbalized "out". R1, apparently thinking there was no chance for a catch has now rounded third. He basically gave up and did not try to return to second base.

As the ball is coming in from F7 to second base, I see R2 had just pulled up on the base. Partner is outside the baseline and now trailing R2. The infielder gets the ball and steps on second base. I called out to retire R1 on the live ball appeal. Not sure if partner also called out.

Now there is some confusion about R1 on second base. No one tagged him with the ball but F4 ran over to 1B and stepped on the base. I'm looking at my partner, and he's got nothing. We got together to discuss and I asked if he saw R1 tag up. He did not. We ended up calling R1 out for an obviously controversial triple play. Runner was not happy, claiming he did tag.

After the game, partner and I discussed. He said he had the tag at second. I asked, well, then who is supposed to take the tag at first? I think at that point he realized he messed up. We sometimes game plan that in a similar situation with the ball being hit to RF, that the BU will take the tag on the runner at second, while PU takes the tag at first given field of vision.

So a couple of things. I can't fault my partner for "getting inside" on this play. The ball off the bat to the catch was maybe 3-4 seconds. He still should have been checking the runner at first.

I usually go by the axiom of if you don't see an out, don't call an out. This case, we didn't see a tag up, and as a result, called an out.

How would others have handled this one?

Thanx.

Remember, you asked.

Given the information I have, I've got no outs with a runner in 2B. Granted, there may be more information not provided, but.....

Unless the defense was obvious the reason for throwing the ball to 2B was to appeal R1 leaving early. I didn't see that noted, but if there was such an insinuation, no problem, then R1 is out.

Your partner was outside the diamond on a ball to LF? With runners on?If he couldn't get inside in 3-4 seconds, he had to be spectating. I'm an old fart with one bad and one fake knee and I can do that. But you are right, that isn't an excuse for not watching the proper base.

This is a good example of why you shouldn't pre-game deviations to the given mechanics. Too often you run into others "assuming" that since it was mentioned in a pregame, it is a given that such a switch-up of coverage will occur on every similar situation. And I have no problem switching up on assignments, but the extent of mentioning that in a pregame would be that "if we need to switch up, I'll let you know".

And if you didn't see the runner tag up, you didn't see him leave early either. And as previously noted, you don't guess the out. That doesn't mean you ignore obvious evidence of an execution of an out (i.e., R2 pulling up to 2B when or nearly immediately following the catch which in his position, your partner should have seen

[jmkupka]

In the "didn't see it, can't call it" vein...
R1 on 2B, grounder to F6, I (BU) come in to make the call at 1B.

Simultaneously, I hear an "OOF" over my right shoulder. After the play at 1B, I look over to see F5 on her keister in foul territory, R1 headed home and thrown out by 5'.

3B OC is waiting for the obvious OB call. My PU partner, watching for the pulled foot on 1B, never saw the (simultaneous) OB at 3B.

Of course, no explanation could ease his frustration or our guilt...

[DeputyUICHousto]

If you want to post your own play please do so in a separate thread...it gets to confusing with three of four plays in one thread

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by deputyuichousto

if you want to post your own play please do so in a separate thread...it gets to confusing with three of four plays in one thread

+1