Passed Base runner question

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

And in ASA, the "basepath" is so loosely defined that the basepath can be anywhere.

Not at all. The term is very precisely defined:

Rule 1 - BASE PATH: A line directly between a base and the runner’s position at the time a defensive player is attempting to tag that runner.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Not at all. The term is very precisely defined:

It's defined, yes, but doesn't go into too many other details than that. The baserunner, if taking a huge turn, can end up in the outfield, making the base path from wherever they're at to the next base. Frankly, I wrote that last night when I was tired, so I'm not sure where I was really going with it.

Anyway, now that I'm freshly rested, my whole point is that if R1 runs 5-10 feet past 3B down the foul line, and R2 is standing on 3B, who's closer to 3B? Who has progressed further?

[greymule]

I've been through this particular debate many times, and a case can be made either way. Without a case play in a particular code, we simply do not know the answer. But as for using "closer to the base" as a determining factor, consider the following.

Abel is returning to 3B with Baker standing on 3B. Baker takes 2 steps back toward 2B. Abel then overruns 3B down the LF line, and does so by 6 steps. Has Abel created a "passing" by Baker? I would say no, even though Baker is closer to 3B. On the other hand, if Baker was standing with one foot on 3B and the other foot in foul territory, and Abel stopped on 3B or reverse-passed Baker on the fair side of the bag, I would say we have a passed-runner situation.

In this case, I interpret on the basepaths to mean "in the square formed by the bases." This interpretation is from OBR, which unlike ASA does not officially define "base path."

There is a similar argument about what "past a base" means in terms of determining a fair ball. Some people claim that a pop that lands far enough out in the infield—say, halfway between the pitcher's plate and 2B—has gone "past a base" and is thus permanently fair and cannot spin backward and become foul. Fed baseball, for example, draws an imaginary line between 3B and 1B to give the term past a base a definite marking. In softball, Fed, NCAA, and ASA do not prescribe such a line.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

I've been through this particular debate many times, and a case can be made either way. Without a case play in a particular code, we simply do not know the answer. But as for using "closer to the base" as a determining factor, consider the following.

Abel is returning to 3B with Baker standing on 3B. Baker takes 2 steps back toward 2B. Abel then overruns 3B down the LF line, and does so by 6 steps. Has Abel created a "passing" by Baker? I would say no, even though Baker is closer to 3B. On the other hand, if Baker was standing with one foot on 3B and the other foot in foul territory, and Abel stopped on 3B or reverse-passed Baker on the fair side of the bag, I would say we have a passed-runner situation.

In this case, I interpret on the basepaths to mean "in the square formed by the bases." This interpretation is from OBR, which unlike ASA does not officially define "base path."

There is a similar argument about what "past a base" means in terms of determining a fair ball. Some people claim that a pop that lands far enough out in the infield—say, halfway between the pitcher's plate and 2B—has gone "past a base" and is thus permanently fair and cannot spin backward and become foul. Fed baseball, for example, draws an imaginary line between 3B and 1B to give the term past a base a definite marking. In softball, Fed, NCAA, and ASA do not prescribe such a line.

When you move to 'Bama, I certainly hope you leave Abel, Baker, Charlie and every other damned ballplayer you know in Jersey.

[greymule]

When you move to 'Bama, I certainly hope you leave Abel, Baker, Charlie and every other damned ballplayer you know in Jersey.

I promise that I will.

Now let's take this play:

No outs. Billy Bob on 3B, Billy Roy on 2B, Billy Joe on 1B. Billy Lee hits a liner to right center . . .

[cpa]

I have a different way of looking at this question of whether or not a runner has passed another

If I understand this correctly, we have a "front" runner who has retreated toward 3rd, which is now occupied by the "back" runner. The front runner reaches 3rd, touches it, and continues on down the third base line while the back runner continues to maintain contact w/ third base.

At that point -- I've got a passing -- using the following logic. If both of those runners now desire to score, who is closer to scoring? The back runner has already MADE 3rd base and may run home without retouching 3rd -- because they're in contact with it.

The front runner is farther away procedurally from reaching home -- prior to running home they must legally retouch 3rd, a process not required of the other runner.

Since the front runner's position is now farther away from home than the back runner (a reversal of the original order) -- I've got a passing -- and an out by the person who did the passing -- the back runner.

[greymule]

You make an intelligent argument, cpa, and you may well be correct. But there are many cases in which rulings contradict intelligent arguments, or at least follow different intelligent arguments, which is why various codes sometimes interpret the same wording differently.

Example: Both ASA and OBR have a penalty for one runner passing another. So let's examine a play: with a runner on 1B, the batter hits a long high fly down the LF line. The BR runs hard to 1B, but the runner waits at 1B, figuring he'll tag up and advance if the ball is caught. The BR rounds 1B and passes the runner while the ball is still in the air, and then the ball falls into the stands in foul territory.

In ASA, the BR is out for passing the runner while the ball was still live. But in OBR, the BR is not out, and the play is simply a foul ball. However, you cannot tell for sure by reading the respective rule books. You have to know from other sources that the codes call this play differently.

All I'm saying is that we don't know until we get some kind of authoritative ruling. It may also be that Fed, ASA, NCAA, and other softball codes would call a reverse overrun of 3B differently.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Both ASA and OBR have a penalty for one runner passing another. So let's examine a play: with a runner on 1B, the batter hits a long high fly down the LF line. The BR runs hard to 1B, but the runner waits at 1B, figuring he'll tag up and advance if the ball is caught. The BR rounds 1B and passes the runner while the ball is still in the air, and then the ball falls into the stands in foul territory.


In ASA, the BR is out for passing the runner while the ball was still live.

You make that call, especially in 'Bama, and you better have your getaway driver waiting with the pick-up running in the parking lot.