Passed Base runner question

[TwoDot]

I had a strange event happen in LL majors game last night that I would like to find out the correct ruling.
With Runners on 2nd and 3rd, a past ball caused runners to try to advance. R3 got half way home, catcher ran her back to 3rd where R2 was standing on the base. R3 touches 3rd and then runs past the bag into the outfield. R2 then runs back to second, catcher throws to second base where R2 was tagged. R3 then runs home and scores.
The umpire (1st game ever) did not know what call to make R coach only wanted R2 to be out, run scoring. I did not think that was correct and we settled on R3 being out, and put R2 on third.
Somewhat unusual play that could only happen at this level, but I would like to know particulars as to what the correct ruling would be.

[NCASAUmp]

I don't know about LL, but I probably would have killed the play if I saw the defense being forced to chase R1 (not R3) into the outfield for an out. How far off the bag did the R1 go? Just a foot or two (maybe these are small infields), or even further? Can't speak for LL, but sounds like it could have been INT to me. I don't have enough of the puzzle here to judge for certain.

Depending on their positioning, you could have R2 passing R1. If R2 was standing on 3B and R1 came running back to 3B and continued on down the foul line, I'd consider R2 as having passed R1, being that R2 has now progressed further than R1. R2 would only be out, and the ball in ASA would be live.

[TwoDot]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, R1 lead runner only went a few steps off of 3rd base on the way back. The catcher never got close enough to make a tag on either player at third.

I couldn't find the correct rule during the play and I talked the opposing coach and umpire into putting R2 on third and called R1 out, based on my understanding of runner out when passed and having assumed that the play should have been called dead. This was done trying to get the game going.

Opposing coach, I thought was trying to manipulate the new umpire, calling good pitch, prior to the ball or strike call, etc. He was just trying to take advantage of the situation, which kind of got me riled up a touch.

[NCASAUmp]

Again, I don't do LL, so I'm only speaking ASA here. It doesn't sound like INT to me, but it sounds like R1 had been "passed" by R2. Key word being: sounds. Without seeing the play myself or knowing exactly where the runners were, that's all I've got.

Out of curiosity, are you a coach, player or umpire?

[Andy]

Wow....what a mess!

If R1 (beginning the play on third) ran back to third and past the base into the outfield to avoid a tag, I can see an out call for that action. However, you said that F2 was not close enough to tag her, so at this point I still have a live ball. I would not call R2 (beginning the play at second) out for passing R1, because she has not technically passed her. If R1 turned back toward second base, then I can justify an out call on R2 for passing R1.

You said the play concluded by R2 retreating to second where she was tagged for an out, and R1 ran home and scored. Assuming that R1 touched third base on her way back home, I have a run scored, an out at second base and no runners on. If R1 did not touch third on her way back home, she would be subject to appeal.

I don't know LL rules specifically, so this is subject to change based on any LL interp that I may not be aware of.....

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by TwoDot

I had a strange event happen in LL majors game last night that I would like to find out the correct ruling.
With Runners on 2nd and 3rd, a past ball caused runners to try to advance. R3 got half way home, catcher ran her back to 3rd where R2 was standing on the base. R3 touches 3rd and then runs past the bag into the outfield. R2 then runs back to second, catcher throws to second base where R2 was tagged. R3 then runs home and scores.
The umpire (1st game ever) did not know what call to make R coach only wanted R2 to be out, run scoring. I did not think that was correct and we settled on R3 being out, and put R2 on third.
Somewhat unusual play that could only happen at this level, but I would like to know particulars as to what the correct ruling would be.

I'll continue to use your runner designations - but those are a different games' designations for the runners. Now, when did R2 pass R3 - I don't see that here. If anything, I have a live ball with R3 being out for going more than 3 feet out of her base path to avoid a tag and I think you've still got R2 on 2B.

[NCASAUmp]

From the sounds of the original post, it sounded like R2 was still standing on 3B when R1 (or R3, as mentioned) had run past 3B. In that case, R2 had advanced beyond the runner who originally occupied 3B.

[greymule]

This has been a point of contention on previous threads, but unless one runner passes the other on the basepaths, I don't have a violation. To me, merely running past 3B down the LF line after returning (with another runner on 3B) doesn't create a passed-runner situation.

To stretch the point a bit: Abel on 1B. Baker hits a shot that F3 traps 15 feet from 1B toward 2B. Seeing F3 with the ball and wanting to avoid the easy double play by delaying the tag, Abel retreats to 1B. Baker then overruns 1B down the RF line. Unless Baker actually moves toward 2B, he has not passed Abel.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by greymule

This has been a point of contention on previous threads, but unless one runner passes the other on the basepaths, I don't have a violation. To me, merely running past 3B down the LF line after returning (with another runner on 3B) doesn't create a passed-runner situation.

To stretch the point a bit: Abel on 1B. Baker hits a shot that F3 traps 15 feet from 1B toward 2B. Seeing F3 with the ball and wanting to avoid the easy double play by delaying the tag, Abel retreats to 1B. Baker then overruns 1B down the RF line. Unless Baker actually moves toward 2B, he has not passed Abel.

I can't see how this analogy would cleanly apply, though. You're referring to a base that can legally be overrun without putting the runner in jeopardy (unless they attempt to advance). 1B and HP are unique in this regards. What we're discussing, however, is a base where an overrun places the runner in jeopardy. The runners have fewer options in this sitch.

If R2 is standing on 3B, and R1 reverses his direction and overruns 3B (going towards the outfield), then I would interpret that as R1 being passed by R2. R1 is now behind 3B, and R2 is standing on top of it.

[greymule]

I can't see how this analogy would cleanly apply, though.

I agree that it's not exactly parallel. (That's why I said I was "stretching" the point.)

I also understand the reasoning that a runner who has retreated past 3B up the LF line has caused the following runner on 3B to "pass" him. But absent a case play, I'd still go the other way on that one. As I remember, OBR (for example) requires that the passing be "on the basepaths."

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by greymule

I can't see how this analogy would cleanly apply, though.

I agree that it's not exactly parallel. (That's why I said I was "stretching" the point.)

I also understand the reasoning that a runner who has retreated past 3B up the LF line has caused the following runner on 3B to "pass" him. But absent a case play, I'd still go the other way on that one. As I remember, OBR (for example) requires that the passing be "on the basepaths."

And in ASA, the "basepath" is so loosely defined that the basepath can be anywhere.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

And in ASA, the "basepath" is so loosely defined that the basepath can be anywhere.

Not at all. The term is very precisely defined:

Rule 1 - BASE PATH: A line directly between a base and the runner’s position at the time a defensive player is attempting to tag that runner.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Not at all. The term is very precisely defined:

It's defined, yes, but doesn't go into too many other details than that. The baserunner, if taking a huge turn, can end up in the outfield, making the base path from wherever they're at to the next base. Frankly, I wrote that last night when I was tired, so I'm not sure where I was really going with it.

Anyway, now that I'm freshly rested, my whole point is that if R1 runs 5-10 feet past 3B down the foul line, and R2 is standing on 3B, who's closer to 3B? Who has progressed further?

[greymule]

I've been through this particular debate many times, and a case can be made either way. Without a case play in a particular code, we simply do not know the answer. But as for using "closer to the base" as a determining factor, consider the following.

Abel is returning to 3B with Baker standing on 3B. Baker takes 2 steps back toward 2B. Abel then overruns 3B down the LF line, and does so by 6 steps. Has Abel created a "passing" by Baker? I would say no, even though Baker is closer to 3B. On the other hand, if Baker was standing with one foot on 3B and the other foot in foul territory, and Abel stopped on 3B or reverse-passed Baker on the fair side of the bag, I would say we have a passed-runner situation.

In this case, I interpret on the basepaths to mean "in the square formed by the bases." This interpretation is from OBR, which unlike ASA does not officially define "base path."

There is a similar argument about what "past a base" means in terms of determining a fair ball. Some people claim that a pop that lands far enough out in the infield—say, halfway between the pitcher's plate and 2B—has gone "past a base" and is thus permanently fair and cannot spin backward and become foul. Fed baseball, for example, draws an imaginary line between 3B and 1B to give the term past a base a definite marking. In softball, Fed, NCAA, and ASA do not prescribe such a line.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

I've been through this particular debate many times, and a case can be made either way. Without a case play in a particular code, we simply do not know the answer. But as for using "closer to the base" as a determining factor, consider the following.

Abel is returning to 3B with Baker standing on 3B. Baker takes 2 steps back toward 2B. Abel then overruns 3B down the LF line, and does so by 6 steps. Has Abel created a "passing" by Baker? I would say no, even though Baker is closer to 3B. On the other hand, if Baker was standing with one foot on 3B and the other foot in foul territory, and Abel stopped on 3B or reverse-passed Baker on the fair side of the bag, I would say we have a passed-runner situation.

In this case, I interpret on the basepaths to mean "in the square formed by the bases." This interpretation is from OBR, which unlike ASA does not officially define "base path."

There is a similar argument about what "past a base" means in terms of determining a fair ball. Some people claim that a pop that lands far enough out in the infield—say, halfway between the pitcher's plate and 2B—has gone "past a base" and is thus permanently fair and cannot spin backward and become foul. Fed baseball, for example, draws an imaginary line between 3B and 1B to give the term past a base a definite marking. In softball, Fed, NCAA, and ASA do not prescribe such a line.

When you move to 'Bama, I certainly hope you leave Abel, Baker, Charlie and every other damned ballplayer you know in Jersey.