Should I eject or not?!?!

[NM FP Ump]

I haven't been able to visit this site in a while, busy with NFHS and work, but I need some advice.

I had two instances, in two completely different games, where I thought about ejecting a coach or player, but didn't. I still have not tossed anyone out of a game, so I am not sure if my thermostat is set too high. These is my second year (two year gap in between) of NFHS, but have called USSSA for 4 years.

Situation 1: Varsity contest, good team vs. winless team. I am BU, in C position, bases loaded. BR hits ball to F6 (playing back) and throws to F5 covering 3rd. F5 is behind the base (cautious of OB?) and receives the ball in time, but does not touch the base. I wait, call and signal "SAFE". She's visibly upset, but seems to realize she did not touch the base. Okay, next inning, same circumstances, F6 throws to F5 covering 3rd; again she does not touch the base. I signal that she is off the base (sweeping of the hands) and call and signal "SAFE". She comes unglued!
F5: What? I was on the bag!
Me: No ma'am. You didn't have contact with the base.
F5: Yes I did. I was touching the base.
Me: No ma'am, you weren't.
F5: I don’t care if you eject me, I was on the base!!
Me: Coach…. Coach, please control your player.
Should I have said, "Coach….. do you have a substitute for this player?" or did I handle it correctly?

Situation 2: JV contest, good team vs. mediocre team. I am PU, HC from good team (who, coincidentally, is a baseball umpire) notices that the 1st base coach from mediocre team has a scorebook. He asks me, between innings, if this is legal; I tell him, yes sir, it is. Inning continues (mediocre team at bat, 1st base coach in coaches box with scorebook) and HC from good team comes out again to address the scorebook issue. I tell him that it is legal; he says no it's not, new rule in 2008 says that you can't have a scorekeeping device in the coaches box. Then he says, "Learn the rules, blue!" I tell him, "That's enough, coach. We are done with this conversation." And he returns to the dugout. Should I have tossed him? I think not, because he is a new coach and is probably confusing baseball with softball. But he did insult my ability and integrity, so I am thinking I could have tossed him, or at least confined him to the dugout for the remainder of the game.

Your feedback is welcome and, as always, appreciated.

[Ed Maeder]

Can't tell you in either of your situations weather or not "you" should have ejected the player or coach. Every umpire has their own limit of what they will take. Yours is different then mine or anyones. One thing I have learned throughout my time of officiating sports, is if I go home beating myself up for not ejecting someone, then they should have been ejected. In time an official gains respect from players and coaches and in turn officials gain a respect for the coaches and players and things seem to work out.

[Steve M]

Scott,
I don't think I'm tossing anyone in either situation, but your first one gets handled a bit differently.
You said "Me: No ma'am. You didn't have contact with the base."
I'm not calling any ball player "ma'am" - she's just a genderless ball player for the purposes of the discussion. And my response would have been something like "in my judgement, you were not on the bag at the right time." With that, I'd head to my starting position.
In your second situation, he let it go when you said you'd heard enough - I see that as good enough.

[BuggBob]

I too have had near the exact same conversation with players and coaches. And I do call players ma’am or sir (thanks the to training of the USMC and my mother). I would suggest, as I have learned, only offer one explanation. After your first explanation there is nothing further to add.

F5: What? I was on the bag!
Me: No ma'am. You didn't have contact with the base.
F5: Yes I did. I was touching the base.
Me: (silence)

I find that some of the worst coaches and players are officials in some other sport. Again I would offer after the “learn the rules” line there is nothing you can add so don’t, just smile, and return to your next position.

When it is time for a coach or player to go you will know and there will be no doubt. From this forum I learned the three P’s. Personal, Profane, and Prolonged. Neither of these cases appeared (to me) PPP.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Myth: It is the umpire's job to keep the players/coaches in the game.

Reality: It is the umpire's responsibility to understand the game and allow the players to play the game. It is the umpire's job to understand the coach's job and responsibility to the team and their goal.

It is the player's/coach's responsibility to understand the game and the umpire's position on the field. It is when one side is unaware of their own responsibilities that there are problems and a player/coach is ejected.

In any case, and contrary to the belief of some real old school officials, bragging about not ejecting anyone doesn't make a better umpire than a skier bragging that he never falls is a better skier.

If an umpire can go a certain period of time without ejecting someone, good for them as long as they did not have to work hard to keep such a streak alive. Not ejecting an individual that should be does no one any favors, including the player's team.

Of course, JMO

[NCASAUmp]

I am of the firm believe that when a participant voluntarily demonstrates a lack of respect towards an umpire, it's usually time to toss them.

In your first scenario, the player did demonstrate a lack of respect towards your role in the game. However, we're talking teenagers here, and anyone who has ever been around teenagers will tell you that they're, well, not exactly well-restrained. Her comment towards you about ejecting her was a little on the impulsive side, and, in a way, possibly involuntary. I think that you probably handled her comment about ejecting her in a fashion that's best suited towards that level. I think you should have had a chat with her coach that goes something like this...

(In a VERY calm and collected fashion) "Coach, I realize your player is upset, but she can't make comments like that again. She needs to cool down, or she will not be participating in this game any longer."

(Edited out the part where I addressed the call, as it only baits the coach to argue her side. Frankly, the call itself is irrelevant.)

I do think, however, that you let her get the better of you by baiting you into arguing with her. I would've done this...

F5: What? I was on the bag!
Me: No, you didn't have contact with the base.
F5: Yes I did. I was touching the base.
Me: Player, that's enough.

If she objects further, call time, pull the coach aside, and have the above talk with him/her.


As for the second scenario, the coach pushed the line pretty hard. It's a bit tough for me to judge the coach's tone, but I'm about 60/40 towards tossing him. A comment like that is a direct insult towards an umpire, and a complete demonstration of a lack of respect towards your role in the game. Whether or not he's correct in his understanding of the rule is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether or not he conducts himself appropriately towards you, and his comment was definitely directed towards you.

Okay, never mind. I just talked myself into it. I'm now 100% for tossing that coach!


I agree with Mike in that keeping a streak alive does yourself no favors. The perception that's given is that you can be a pincushion, and when you need to stand your ground and make that tough call, it will be ten times harder to do so.

Take not my comments personally, as I've also been in the same position before. In the beginning, I tossed too many. In the middle, I probably tossed too few by having the same goal: trying to keep someone in a game. Now, I think I've found a happy medium of keeping only the deserving participants in the game.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Myth: It is the umpire's job to keep the players/coaches in the game.

Reality: It is the umpire's responsibility to understand the game and allow the players to play the game. It is the umpire's job to understand the coach's job and responsibility to the team and their goal.

It is the player's/coach's responsibility to understand the game and the umpire's position on the field. It is when one side is unaware of their own responsibilities that there are problems and a player/coach is ejected.

In any case, and contrary to the belief of some real old school officials, bragging about not ejecting anyone doesn't make a better umpire than a skier bragging that he never falls is a better skier.

If an umpire can go a certain period of time without ejecting someone, good for them as long as they did not have to work hard to keep such a streak alive. Not ejecting an individual that should be does no one any favors, including the player's team.

Of course, JMO

I agree - completely.
In the explanations I gave earlier to your 2 situations -
1-I gave a 1 sentence explanation and left. If the player follows me to actually agrue, she is telling me that she does not want to stay. I'll recognize that and allow her to go.
2-In this one, you're actually dealing with another umpire - but one from a game where the culture is that they eject far quicker. You allowed him a 1-line disagreement. The part that takes him up to the line is that he came back and now he's talking about history, so the leash just became a very short choker chain.

I also agree that the umpire who goes too far in keeping someone in the game is not doing anything good. Take this to Bugg Bob's thread about a nutcracker, this umpire who can't/won't/doesn't toss anyone ever doesn't need a cup - there's nothing there to protect.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by BuggBob

F5: What? I was on the bag!
Me: No ma'am. You didn't have contact with the base.
F5: Yes I did. I was touching the base.
Me: (silence)

When I read the original post, I was thinking the exact same. Her first question, I consider a question and thus I would supply an answer. The second time she said it, I would consider it whining and would ignore it.

As for scenario #2... it depends. How loud was the coach when he said, "Learn the rules, blue!" What was his posture, body language, etc. From what I'm reading, I'm betting I would have ejected.

It might be unfair, but if an "umpire" is in a game as player/coach, they get little leeway from me. Not because I expect more, but becuase sportsmanship from off duty officials always seem to be FANTASTIC or TERRIBLE. So if they are terrible, it's not my job to try and keep them in the game.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Myth: It is the umpire's job to keep the players/coaches in the game.

Reality: It is the umpire's responsibility to understand the game and allow the players to play the game. It is the umpire's job to understand the coach's job and responsibility to the team and their goal.

It is the player's/coach's responsibility to understand the game and the umpire's position on the field. It is when one side is unaware of their own responsibilities that there are problems and a player/coach is ejected.

In any case, and contrary to the belief of some real old school officials, bragging about not ejecting anyone doesn't make a better umpire than a skier bragging that he never falls is a better skier.

If an umpire can go a certain period of time without ejecting someone, good for them as long as they did not have to work hard to keep such a streak alive. Not ejecting an individual that should be does no one any favors, including the player's team.

Of course, JMO

AMEN!!!!

The words "do everything you can to keep everyone in the game" is like fingernails on a chalk board.

I'm not so sure I'm tossing the first instance, but that is the warning.

So.. the second instance, it might just go, especially if it was the second conversation on the same issue. It would probably depend on overall way said, how loud he was etc.

They go from the game at their choosing. It aint your job to take their bs just to keep them in the game.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by NM FP Ump

(With respect to the score book) I tell him that it is legal; he says no it's not, new rule in 2008 says that you can't have a scorekeeping device in the coaches box. Then he says, "Learn the rules, blue!" I tell him, "That's enough, coach. We are done with this conversation." And he returns to the dugout.

Just for the record...

There have been no rule changes disallowing scorekeeping devices in possession of base coaches.

And he wasn't "confusing baseball with softball". There is no such rule prohibiting these devices in baseball, either. In fact, for FED baseball, they are specifically allowed.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Just for the record...

There have been no rule changes disallowing scorekeeping devices in possession of base coaches.

And he wasn't "confusing baseball with softball". There is no such rule prohibiting these devices in baseball, either. In fact, for FED baseball, they are specifically allowed.

He was probably thinking a communications device.

[[email protected]]

My basic philoshophy is I never throw anyone--they throw themselves and I do the paperwork. In other words, in most cases you'll have no doubt.

First sitch--depends on how loud she was and body language. Sounds like I would have considered it. But I agree with the poster who said to tell her she WAS off the bag, the walk away. If she then follows you, say good night.

Second sitch--"Learn the rules." Again, depends on volume and body language. Most coaches doing that, IMO, are asking you to throw them, whether to light up their team or to say it's all your fault they lost or he just wants to see how far he can go. I've ignored it and I've tossed for it.

In other words, in both cases--HTBT.

Note: read rule 3-6-10, pg 39--he needs to "learn the rules."

[SWFLguy]

Love the 3 P's criteria----Personal, Profane, Prolonged. Will use that in the future.
BTW--- FHSAA, the governing body here in Florida requires officials to fax ejection information to them within 24 hours after the contest. I know a lot of umpires have that hassle in the back of their mind when it comes to ejections here.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by SWFLguy

I know a lot of umpires have that hassle in the back of their mind when it comes to ejections here.

I have heard that numerous times around here. Kinda makes me crazy that people won't take care of business over a little report. I always volunteer to write up the ejection report. .

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by SWFLguy

Love the 3 P's criteria----Personal, Profane, Prolonged. Will use that in the future.
BTW--- FHSAA, the governing body here in Florida requires officials to fax ejection information to them within 24 hours after the contest. I know a lot of umpires have that hassle in the back of their mind when it comes to ejections here.

Same thing in Pennsylvania - we can fax on submit via the internet.
I don't see the big deal, though I have not volunteered to do somebody else' paperwork.