4th out situation

[CelticNHBlue]

Situation:

R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, 2 outs and 2 strikes on the batter.

D3K, R1 scores, R2 attempts to score but is thrown out at the plate to end the inning. BR never advances to 1B but stays in live ball territory until action is over. Catcher now tags BR for 4th out in an attempt to negate run scored by R1.

What is your call?

[Dakota]

ASA rules?

[MNBlue]

Can only call 4th out on a runner that scored and violated the rules: missed a base, or left early on a caught fly ball.

Deny 4th out appeal. R1 scores.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Can only call 4th out on a runner that scored and violated the rules: missed a base, or left early on a caught fly ball.

Deny 4th out appeal. R1 scores.

That would be assuming ASA.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

That would be assuming ASA.

Correct

[canump]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Can only call 4th out on a runner that scored and violated the rules: missed a base, or left early on a caught fly ball.

Deny 4th out appeal. R1 scores.

Mark would the fact that the BR not advancing to 1st not be considered a rule violation and be considered an appeal play which then could be used as a 4th out
Just wondering here.

[Dakota]

BR didn't score. ASA Rule 5-5-B:

No run shall be scored if a “fourth out” is the result of an appeal of a base missed or left to soon on a runner who has scored.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by canump

Mark would the fact that the BR not advancing to 1st not be considered a rule violation and be considered an appeal play which then could be used as a 4th out
Just wondering here.

No.

The 4th out appeal only is valid for runners who have scored.

[NCASAUmp]

I see where you're going with this, but unfortunately for the defense, I've got 3 outs and R1 scored. She should have tagged BR and not R2. Once you've got 3 outs, you've got 3 outs, and your "fourth out appeal" can only be on a runner that scored. You can't "take away" an out.

[greymule]

Up until a couple of years ago, that exact same ASA case play had the run nullified on an advantageous fourth out. Not really an appeal, simply the BR before reaching 1B, but the principle is the same. ASA used to permit advantageous appeals after 3 outs on any runner, not just one who had scored.

However, for some reason unknown to me, they changed their rule.

I know of no other code that parallels ASA's in this regard.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by greymule

I know of no other code that parallels ASA's in this regard.

In Fed, for example, the 4th out on the BR would nullify the run.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Dakota

In Fed, for example, the 4th out on the BR would nullify the run.

hmm.. I'm not aware of that difference. I've looked and dont see that. I am assuming you mean an appeal for 4th out on BR?

Where are you looking?

Thanks

[Dakota]

NFHS 2-1-13

ART. 13 . . . Fourth-Out Appeal. An appeal may be made after the third out as long as it is made properly.

No mention of the appealed runner having scored.

Case Play

9.1.1 SITUATION O: With R1, R2 and R3 on third, second, and first, respectively, B5 hits a fly ball to F8 for the second out. All base runners tag up and advance one base. F8's throw to F5 retires R2 for the third out, but after R1 has scored. R3 did not tag up and was properly appealed by the defensive team (fourth out). Does the run by R1 count? RULING: The only time a fourth out (or fifth) would take precedence is if it negates a score(s). In the above case, the fourth out would not negate R1's run, because R3's out was not a force out. (9-1-1 Exception d, e; 2-1-13)

By implication, the appeal on R3 WOULD have been honored if it HAD negated the run, even though R3 herself did not score.

Rule 9-1-1 Exception e

e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the halfinning (the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage);

[greymule]

hmm.. I'm not aware of that difference. I've looked and dont see that. I am assuming you mean an appeal for 4th out on BR?

It isn't technically an appeal. It's simply putting the BR out before the BR reaches 1B. We might think of it as an appeal because it comes after the third out, and apparently ASA doesn't differentiate, but an appeal is for a base missed or left too soon. When Fred Merkle failed to advance to 2B in 1908, that was just a force out, not an appeal play.

Take this play:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, 2 out. With Abel off on the pitch, Charles hits a ground ball to F5, who sees Baker approaching and figures he'll tag Baker for the third out. Abel crosses the plate before F5 tags Baker, but then F5 realizes his mistake and throws to 1B for the (fourth) out on Charles.

Whether we call this an "appeal" or not, in ASA the out at 1B would not count and the run would score. In Fed and NCAA softball (and all the baseball codes), it would be nullified.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Dakota

NFHS 2-1-13
No mention of the appealed runner having scored.

Case Play
By implication, the appeal on R3 WOULD have been honored if it HAD negated the run, even though R3 herself did not score.

Rule 9-1-1 Exception e

I dont think I ever noticed that, you certainly seem correct. thanks. To bad its not clearer or on the NFHS differences.. because that is a significant difference.