4th out situation
 

Situation:

R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, 2 outs and 2 strikes on the batter.

D3K, R1 scores, R2 attempts to score but is thrown out at the plate to end the inning. BR never advances to 1B but stays in live ball territory until action is over. Catcher now tags BR for 4th out in an attempt to negate run scored by R1.

What is your call?

ASA rules?

Can only call 4th out on a runner that scored and violated the rules: missed a base, or left early on a caught fly ball.

Deny 4th out appeal. R1 scores.

That would be assuming ASA.

Correct

Mark would the fact that the BR not advancing to 1st not be considered a rule violation and be considered an appeal play which then could be used as a 4th out
Just wondering here.

BR didn't score. ASA Rule 5-5-B:

No.

The 4th out appeal only is valid for runners who have scored.

I see where you're going with this, but unfortunately for the defense, I've got 3 outs and R1 scored. She should have tagged BR and not R2. Once you've got 3 outs, you've got 3 outs, and your "fourth out appeal" can only be on a runner that scored. You can't "take away" an out.

Up until a couple of years ago, that exact same ASA case play had the run nullified on an advantageous fourth out. Not really an appeal, simply the BR before reaching 1B, but the principle is the same. ASA used to permit advantageous appeals after 3 outs on any runner, not just one who had scored.

However, for some reason unknown to me, they changed their rule.

I know of no other code that parallels ASA's in this regard.

In Fed, for example, the 4th out on the BR would nullify the run.

hmm.. I'm not aware of that difference. I've looked and dont see that. I am assuming you mean an appeal for 4th out on BR?

Where are you looking?

Thanks

NFHS 2-1-13
No mention of the appealed runner having scored.

Case Play
By implication, the appeal on R3 WOULD have been honored if it HAD negated the run, even though R3 herself did not score.

Rule 9-1-1 Exception e

hmm.. I'm not aware of that difference. I've looked and dont see that. I am assuming you mean an appeal for 4th out on BR?

It isn't technically an appeal. It's simply putting the BR out before the BR reaches 1B. We might think of it as an appeal because it comes after the third out, and apparently ASA doesn't differentiate, but an appeal is for a base missed or left too soon. When Fred Merkle failed to advance to 2B in 1908, that was just a force out, not an appeal play.

Take this play:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, 2 out. With Abel off on the pitch, Charles hits a ground ball to F5, who sees Baker approaching and figures he'll tag Baker for the third out. Abel crosses the plate before F5 tags Baker, but then F5 realizes his mistake and throws to 1B for the (fourth) out on Charles.

Whether we call this an "appeal" or not, in ASA the out at 1B would not count and the run would score. In Fed and NCAA softball (and all the baseball codes), it would be nullified.

I dont think I ever noticed that, you certainly seem correct. thanks. To bad its not clearer or on the NFHS differences.. because that is a significant difference.