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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 10:28am
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C.E. Situation ??

A friend brought this play up to me. I've tried looking a little but couldn't find it.

White 15 fouls green 15 on a rebound (push from behind). Confusion by the crew puts 15 white on the line for 1 & 1.

White makes both shots and green inbounds, while coming up the court, the crew realizes the mistake and stops play.

So what’s the correct call in this situation?

I know I'll catch hell for my opinion on this one, but here goes.

I would wipe the 2 pts off the board and put green on the line and start from there.

If green had scored on the possession we had after the erroneous 1 & 1, and then the crew or coach catches the error. I would say sorry (green) coach, botched it, and play on. (I would be more diplomatic, condensed for time and typing)

I could look my assignor in the eye with this fix and say, “I realize my solution may not have been text book, but was the right and fair thing to do”
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 10:56am
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Actually, I think you have done almost exactly what 2-10 recommends. The only mistake is letting the game flow from the green free throws. I think you have to let green shoot, and then give the ball back to green at the point the ball was when you stopped the game to correct the error. I realize that letting the game go from the 1-&-1 is "fairer" but the rule says POI. I'm not going to give you hell for it, though.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 11:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garote

White 15 fouls green 15 on a rebound (push from behind). Confusion by the crew puts 15 white on the line for 1 & 1.

White makes both shots and green inbounds, while coming up the court, the crew realizes the mistake and stops play.

So what’s the correct call in this situation?

I know I'll catch hell for my opinion on this one, but here goes.

I would wipe the 2 pts off the board and put green on the line and start from there.
Close. Cancel white's FT's. Put green 15 on the line with nobody lined up for the 1-1. After the first missed or second FT, go back to the POI where the error was discovered.

NFHS rules 2-10-1(c), 2-10-2, 2-10-4,5&6 .
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 11:43am
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Unfortunately, I believe that allowing the opponent to shoot FTs constitutes a change of team possession since the error was made, so even though you have a correctable error that involves the awarding of merited FTs, you can't continue from there. You have to return the ball to Green for throw-in nearest where they had control when the game was stopped and the error recognized.

Also, if Green had scored on that possession, but the error was recognized prior to the throw-in, then it is still within the correctable timeframe.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 01:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Unfortunately, I believe that allowing the opponent to shoot FTs constitutes a change of team possession since the error was made, so even though you have a correctable error that involves the awarding of merited FTs, you can't continue from there. You have to return the ball to Green for throw-in nearest where they had control when the game was stopped and the error recognized.
Interesting question since, "the free throw and the activity during it...shall be canceled" (2-10-4). So is the change in possession as written in 10-2-6 canceled?

Any authoritative guidance?
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 01:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas
Interesting question since, "the free throw and the activity during it...shall be canceled" (2-10-4). So is the change in possession as written in 10-2-6 canceled?

Any authoritative guidance?
No. The rebound is after the FT ends....not during it.

What would be canceled is a personal foul or violation committed prior to the ending of the FT.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 01:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
No. The rebound is after the FT ends....not during it.

What would be canceled is a personal foul or violation committed prior to the ending of the FT.
Cameron,

I think you missed Nevada's point. The only change in possession in the original sitch is when White attempts the FTs.

My point is, if that is the only change in possession and we are canceling the FT and the activity during it, do we cancel the change in possession and thereby resume play after the FTs.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 02:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas
Cameron,

I think you missed Nevada's point. The only change in possession in the original sitch is when White attempts the FTs.

My point is, if that is the only change in possession and we are canceling the FT and the activity during it, do we cancel the change in possession and thereby resume play after the FTs.
I understand what Kajun is trying to say. He is asking if the "rebounding" of the missed free throw is constituted as activity. Because, say White's unmerited free throw missed and Green got the rebound, made a couple of passes, then the official blows the whistle in recognition of the error. Then Green shoots its merited free throws, makes both shots, and also gets the ball back because of the POI rule. One of the many flaws to the correctable error rule, as I noted long ago in my infamous IDGAF post.
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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Oct 13, 2006 at 02:24pm.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 02:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas
Cameron,

I think you missed Nevada's point. The only change in possession in the original sitch is when White attempts the FTs.

My point is, if that is the only change in possession and we are canceling the FT and the activity during it, do we cancel the change in possession and thereby resume play after the FTs.
No, you resume play at the POI.

The error was made before the original FT's. White had possession during the FT's. Green had possession after the FT's. Therefore, that is a change of team possession after the error was made. After re-shooting the FT's, you just go to the POI when the correctable error was discovered, as per rule 2-10-6.

Don't overthink the play. The rule is clear enough for this particular situation.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Fri Oct 13, 2006 at 02:40pm.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 02:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
No, you resume play at the POI.

White had possession duringthe FT's. Green had possession after the FT's. Therefore, that is a change of team possession after the error was made. After re-shooting the FT's, you just go to the POI when the correctable error was discovered, as per rule 2-10-6.
Except that 2-10-5 says that you cancel the free throw and the activity during it. My question is, if the free throw and the activitiy during it is canceled, why is the possession not canceled?

Last edited by Kajun Ref N Texas; Fri Oct 13, 2006 at 02:45pm.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 02:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas
Except that 2-10-5 says that you cancel the free throw and the activity during it. My question is, if the free throw and the activitiy during it is canceled, why is the possession not canceled?
JR, I'll make your argument for you.

Case 2.10.1 Sit C
A1 is fouled prior to the bonus, but erroneously A1 is awarded a one-and-one. The error is discovered: (c) after B1 has rebounded the miss on the second free throw. Ruling: In (c) the successful free throw is canceled and play continues with a throw-in by B as B had the ball when the game was interrupted for correction.

Obviously, in 2.10.1 C the possession that was the free throw was not canceled therefore, there is a change in possession.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 02:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas
Except that 2-10-5 says that you cancel the free throw and the activity during it. My question is, if the free throw and the activitiy during it is canceled, why is the possession not canceled?
The possession isn't cancelled because the possession was not part of any activity during the wrong FT(s). The possession was after the last wrong FT had ended.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 03:04pm
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Kajun, I think the distinction is any activity during the FT; meaning that once possession is established then the FT has ended.

Not saying I agree with the correctable error rule or its interpretations.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 03:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
The possession isn't cancelled because the possession was not part of any activity during the wrong FT(s). The possession was after the last wrong FT had ended.
Well, in order to have change in possession, you must have two possessions. There is possession by one team when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower, and possession by one team upon the rebound.

However, we are arguing semantics, which is dangerous with a Kajun. You were correct in that the possession by the throwing team is not canceled and therefore there is change in possession and therefore POI.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2006, 03:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Kajun, I think the distinction is any activity during the FT; meaning that once possession is established then the FT has ended.
Not really. The FT ends when the try is either successful or unsuccessful, or the try touches the floor or a player, or the ball becomes dead. Possession, either player/team, does not necessarily occur automatically when the FT ends. You could have a loose ball or a dead ball also. If you recognize the error before a change in possession occurs after the last wrong FT ended, then you just line 'em up and re-shoot the FT's with the correct shooter on the line.

The common criteria is that all of these activities occur after the last wrong FT ended, and that any activity that occurs after the last wrong FT ended is not cancelled, by rule.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Fri Oct 13, 2006 at 03:21pm.
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