Should Umpires correct unchallenged mistakes?

[bkbjones]

OK, call me an ***, I don't care, but this is a real life play from 3 years ago. Somewhere on some computer I have six frames of photos of this play, the crappy mechanics by the BU, etc.

Working a very important game, last regular season game of the year. I am PU, and Sucky Stinky is BU. Anyway, he blows a call by misinterpreting a rule. Off. coach comes sprinting out of the dugout. This is a guy with a pretty good rep for dealing well with umpires, so for him to sprint out there means he saw the same thing I did.

Partner gets into it with him, and is the antagonist. He explains why he made the call, totally misinterpreting the rule no matter the ruleset (this was NFHS). Coach, who also know the rule book better than many umpires, immediately says he is going to play the game under protest.

At that point I interject myself and tell him no, he's not, this was a rule interpretation issue and we are going to correct it right now. I cover for partner as best I can, and fortunately he keeps his mouth shut.

I am not saying what I did is appropriate for every situation, but it was for that one IMHO.

[NM FP Ump]

So, I go straight to my PU (who is probably looking at the lead runner coming home) and point to him/her and ask "She didn't pull her foot, did she?" just kidding. "Do you have a pulled foot?"

By "live appeal" I meant that I shouldn't call "TIME" and then ask the PU. Sorry, used the wrong terminology.

[Andy]

I disagree to a point....

In your judgement, F3s foot was on the bag so you made the out call. The coach yelling "she pulled her foot" is no different then him yelling "she beat the throw" to me. His judgement is different then mine.

If the coach comes to me asks me to check with my partner, I will deal with that at the time.

On this call, coming from the C position and having a crappy angle to start with, if I have any doubt about the pulled foot, I'm asking my partner before I make a call.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

I am not saying what I did is appropriate for every situation, but it was for that one IMHO.

I think this is probably the best answer for WMB's question. Sometimes you get involved and sometimes you don't. I thought I knew the rule book fairly well, but, with the help of this discussion board and others, I have discovered I'm not as bright as I thought I was. When I screw up on the field, I don't really want to be corrected and be further made the fool, but, I certainly would prefer to get the ruling correct than think I'm right, when I'm really wrong.

All the training I've received generally tells me to keep my mouth shut when my partner makes a call, UNLESS my partner asks me for help. "You made the call, live or die with it." I understand the philosophy behind that attitude, but sometimes I disagree with it.

Last NFHS season, my relatively new partner was going to eject and call out an unreported sub who just hit a triple. I, feeling confident I was the only one who knew the correct ruling, interjected myself. Gave the warning, left her on third. DC coach tells me after the inning that they looked it up and I was right. I didn't need that confirmation, but I was also glad that we ended up getting the ruling correct.

I think if your partner is about to screw up a ruling and you can prevent it, or fix it, you should do it. But use some tact. Don't throw your partner under the bus; you're a team. Get it right, but don't take away your partners dignity.

If your partner has crappy judgement, your partner has to take the heat until they get better.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by NM FP Ump

Okay, a little help here. Along the same line as the OP, but a little off topic, as usual.

Last weekend’s scrimmage game. R1 on 3rd, R 2 on 2nd, two outs. Ball hit to F6, she throws to 1st, F3 has to stretch to get the ball before BR gets to 1st. I give an emphatic, overhead out signal, and the 1st base coach is pointing at the base and yelling, “She pulled her foot!!” Strangely enough, that was all he said! He didn’t come up to me for anything else, and I didn’t avoid him (took my position on 1st base line extended to watch teams switch and warm up). Maybe he decided it was just a scrimmage game. So I asked my partner, “Did she pull her foot?” He says, “Yes, she did.” Okay, too late to reverse a call, but here is my question:

Should I have gone straight to my partner (PU) for a live ball appeal (in order to “get it right”) or should I wait for the coach to ask for help (i.e. check swing)?

Your opinions, please.

OK, so you're making this call from the C position, right? And you're possibly straightlined. The 1B coach says something about a pulled foot and you did not check with your partner. Bad decision on your part. Yes, you should have immediately gone to your partner to see about a pulled foot. If your partner can provide more info, great. If not, then we live with what you saw.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Andy

In your judgement, F3s foot was on the bag so you made the out call. The coach yelling "she pulled her foot" is no different then him yelling "she beat the throw" to me. His judgement is different then mine.

I'm actually going to disagree with you there. Yes, both are judgment calls, but to me, "she pulled her foot" is very different from "she beat the throw." While both are contesting a judgment call, the first statement is "I think you missed a piece of the puzzle, Blue." The second statement is simply "I don't agree with you."

The first statement will almost always prompt me to go to my partner. He or she will hopefully have had the angle and the awareness. The second statement will almost always get an "out" call.

Okay, just kidding about the out call, but you know what I mean.

As for John's post, if a coach states that they want to file a protest on my partner's call, I might do what John does and nip it in the bud right then and there. At that point, what do we have to lose?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Okay, it has been mentioned a couple times that the PU has other priorities. So, the runner will ALWAYS be safe if you go to your partner and his prescribed duties take his eyes away from the play at 1B because you have basically given up the call.

As the BU and you have no reason to believe F3 pulled her foot, make the call you see. If the question is raised, yeah I will go to my partner and have a private conversation. Having him shrug his shoulders or states something along the line of "I wasn't watching" to a question across the field just looks bad and questions the integrity of the crew even though there may have been good cause for the PU for not seeing the play. Perception is reality to many people.

And, speaking ASA, the manual specifically states "ALWAYS MAKE THE CALL FIRST THEN GO FOR HELP IF NEEDED."

[canump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Okay, it has been mentioned a couple times that the PU has other priorities. So, the runner will ALWAYS be safe if you go to your partner and his prescribed duties take his eyes away from the play at 1B because you have basically given up the call.

As the BU and you have no reason to believe F3 pulled her foot, make the call you see. If the question is raised, yeah I will go to my partner and have a private conversation. Having him shrug his shoulders or states something along the line of "I wasn't watching" to a question across the field just looks bad and questions the integrity of the crew even though there may have been good cause for the PU for not seeing the play. Perception is reality to many people.

And, speaking ASA, the manual specifically states "ALWAYS MAKE THE CALL FIRST THEN GO FOR HELP IF NEEDED."

One thing I was taught as a young umpire by a very good senior ump was when making a call at 1st base when you are coming off the line position is to watch F3 feet and listen for the ball to hit the glove. Then just look to make sure he/she has control of the ball, then make your out call. Of course if you judge a safe call then you don't have to look for control. Doing this helps you make sure the foot stayed in contact with the bag and also keeps you from rushing your call.
I know that this only works coming off the line position because if you're out on the 2nd base or shotstop position you will sometimes need help as per the foot from your partner. I've managed to ump this way for 30 some years with no major problems or issues with off the bag situations at first.
Just thought i'd put this out there, maybe it will help others & maybe not.

[bkbjones]

A long time ago in a faraway land called Texas, I was taught a similar mechanic: watch the feet, listen for the ball to hit the glove. The man who taught me was a former major league umpire who gave up his career to save his marriage.

That's the mechanic I used for a long time. I was a darn good baseball umpire, called umpteen thousand games including college ball.

Then, after a forced "retirement" of a few years, I came back. First thing I learned was the unbreak that habit of watching/listening. In the baseball rule book, the advice to umpires is to "watch the ball everlastingly." Softball rule books say pretty much the same thing.

One thing is certain: you don't have a play if you don't watch the ball. I firmly believe that with proper mechanics you CAN watch the ball, follow it into the glove or wherever it goes, and still nail the play at 1B. It even works if the ball is a one-hopper to CF who throws out the batter-runner on a bang-bang play. All of the young ladies involved play D1 softball, and it was a thing of beauty.

Also, your fellow Canuck Gil the Thrill says don't watch/listen.

[IRISHMAFIA]

While I will use sound, I stay far enough away from the play that I can see the "big picture", ball, glove, foot & base.

I do not litteraly practice letting the "ball take you to the play". If you let your eyes travel with the ball, you will never focus in time to see much of anything on a banger. You could if you were sitting in right field (which is where you are with some of the men's SP), but if on the dirt, I use my peripheral vision to see the release. And try to be focused on the location where the ball will end up.

But, like many other things, what works for one umpire may not work for the next.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

While I will use sound, I stay far enough away from the play that I can see the "big picture", ball, glove, foot & base.

I do not litteraly practice letting the "ball take you to the play". If you let your eyes travel with the ball, you will never focus in time to see much of anything on a banger. You could if you were sitting in right field (which is where you are with some of the men's SP), but if on the dirt, I use my peripheral vision to see the release. And try to be focused on the location where the ball will end up.

But, like many other things, what works for one umpire may not work for the next.

Well, if you were perfect like me it wouldn't be a problem!


Your sage advice is very sound and works very well.